Eron Gjoni Clarifies the Zoe Quinn, Nathan Grayson Timeline

Depression QuestI’m tired of this whole Quinnspiracy thing. I really am.

But there’s a new edit on thezoepost blog by Eron Gjoni, and it basically puts a bullet in the head of the argument that Zoe Quinn had had sex with Nathan Grayson in exchange for favorable coverage.

Here it is:

There was a typo up for a while that made it seem like Zoe and I were on break between March and June. This has apparently led some people to infer that her infidelity with Nathan Grayson began in early March. I want to clarify that I have no reason to believe or evidence to imply she was sleeping with him prior to late March or early April (though I believe they’d been friends for a while before that). This typo has since been corrected to make it clear we were on break between May and June. To be clear, if there was any conflict of interest between Zoe and Nathan regarding coverage of Depression Quest prior to April, I have no reason to believe that it was sexual in nature.

Even Eron Gjoni himself — the person who started this entire thing — admits that there was no sexual relationship between Zoe and Nathan before April.

One last thing I should say is that I think making this edit was a very commendable thing for Gjoni to do. It’s not easy to have to publicly defend an ex that mistreated you, and this shows he’s got a lot more honor than I was originally willing to give him credit for. I still think the blog post was a shitty thing to do, but I think his recent edit shows at least some measure of growing up is happening on his part.

So can we please stop prattling on about this? Please?

  • qas4t+zt0x0bbvrozw@sharklasers

    It was shitty that Zoe slept around, yeah, but it doesn’t matter who she slept with or even why she did it. This isn’t a question of journalistic integrity, it’s a question of domestic abuse. Quinn lied to Gjoni about who she was sleeping with, then had unprotected sex with him without his effective consent – something she herself likens to rape – so that he wouldn’t get suspicious. In order to further divert suspicion, she tried to make him lose confidence in his own sanity (the popular term for that is “gaslighting”). The net result of her actions is that Gjoni suffered from a panic attack, which is likely just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the psychological harm he suffered. What Quinn did isn’t just “kind of shitty,” it’s monstrous and inexcusable. It’s the sort of thing that needs to be exposed so that other people aren’t harmed by her in the future.

    You condescendingly say that Eron needs to “grow up,” but outing an abuser is one of the most difficult hurdles an adult can overcome. Being seen as a victim is painful and embarrassing. Men especially are often painted as weak – or worse, petty, as is happening here – for letting abuse happen to themselves and then “whining” about it.

    And if you honestly believe this is strictly the business of those involved, then I hope you’ve never made any comments about Chris Brown and Rhianna, because that would make you a COLOSSAL hypocrite.

  • ASurvivor

    You are so right Josh. Victims of relationship abuse need to just sit down and be quiet. The only mature way to deal with someone who gaslights, engages in emotional and mental manipulation, exerts overbearing control and isolates their victims, is to make sure no one else knows about it. Who cares if it’s a classic pattern of behavior for domestic abusers? The important thing is that victims just take it in silence like adults.

    • Josh Wirtanen

      That’s not what I’m saying at all.

      There’s a gigantic difference between attempting to publicly destroy the professional life of someone who cheated on you and actually getting help dealing with the psychological fallout from said breakup. I feel like any rational human being should understand that difference.

      I’m not saying what Quinn did is right, but Gjoni’s response is immature, narcissistic, vengeful, and abusive. Gjoni’s actions are not the behavior of an “abuse victim,” as you call him, seeking help; they’re the actions of a jilted lover on a rampage of vengeance.

      I think his clarification of the situation was a step in the right direction, but it doesn’t make up for the fact that the Zoe Post was a shitty piece of manipulative ex-shaming that shouldn’t have been written in the first place.

      • FreakShowFan

        So the

        • Mike Fondant

          Fantastic Post Josh.
          It goes without saying it’s issues like this why it’s very hard some men can not openly express when they have been emotionally hurt. The moment we do we’re told to suck it up and that’s why we have so many pent up hardened souls out there.

          Just a pat on the back and told to get back out there. If this had happened to a female who was with a serial cheater male partner there would be hardly anyone commending that males actions it’s surprising to see some people justify Zoe’s actions like it was no big deal? Perhaps because some people don’t know how to deal with a woman being the “bad guy” which is a shame. We’re all capable of some crummy things and if we all truly want to be as close to equality as reasonably possible then people need to fess up with true remorse when they fuck up.

          I truly believe had Zoe had shown true remorse and not flip flopped and continued to make it seem like something was wrong with Eron not her actions even after their official seperation the last time he wouldn’t of posted anything. The “white knighting” going on is also ridiculous. However I feel the damage is done and it’s a damn shame a lot of scorned men are using her to unleash their pain.

          • Mister_Misinformed

            I haven’t seen many commending Zoe’s actions. (Haven’t seen any, actually, but I assume someone somewhere probably did, given how many creeps are on the internet.) Most are saying it’s none of our business. When your neighbor gets cheated on by his wife does he put up billboards around the city with the chat logs of his conversations with her?

          • Andy W

            If neighbors wife was a public figure who has built a persona on bringing social issues to light you could probably bet other people would talk about it. What it is otherwise personal information becomes grounds for discussion when you are a public figure. whether its right or a good thing is questionable and nuanced

          • Mister_Misinformed

            a) I specifically used “your neighbor” to give an example of an unfamous person. Statistically, most people don’t live next to famous people.

            b) If you reread what you are replying to, I did not say other people would not talk about it, Of course other people would talk about whatever gossip they heard about someone they know. The part I stated would usually not happen is the husband posting the chat logs and chronology of his relationship in public for his neighbors to see.

          • Andy W

            right, so your example is not a very good comparison to the issue at hand, is it

          • Adam Griffin

            Eron doesn’t need to make a public statement in order to express his level of emotional hurt. He can be open and talk to his friends, his family, even his work colleagues. I suggested he find himself a good counsellor, something that I have for myself to work through my own stuff. It’s a very new age thing that in order to express your emotions you have to do it on a public stage. For years people did it by going on Dr Phil or Oprah. These days you just start your own blog and suddenly you’ve got 100,000 people on your side. It’s the same basic dysfunction in either case and it’s got nothing to do with men being discouraged to express their emotions. The solution to victims of abuse keeping silent is not for them to post on public forums. It needs a bit more thought and consideration than that.

            You also don’t need to defend Quinn at all to recognise that his actions were incredibly irresponsible and motivated by emotion and a need to punish her in some way. He can give the answer that he’s giving some kind of public service by warning people about her but that’s terribly transparent. He wanted to hurt her. So he did. It was very effective. That’s the primary consequence of what he did so it’s hard to argue that he really intended some other outcome.

            We don’t need to defend the crimes of someone in jail to realise that it’s just human decency to not treat them like shit. It’s also logical that treating people like shit won’t achieve anything, no matter how awful they seem to have been. So although Quinn may well have done some pretty awful things that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t be protected from the horrors that have come her way. That’s the problem with “social justice”. I do something bad to you, you do something bad to me. Really? That’s the solution?

          • Andy W

            I agree that vilification of a person isn’t a decent thing to do, but should we never call public figures out on their actions? My problem is that under the guise of decency you fail to hold people responsible for their actions. Quinn’s actions have led to a charity drive being shut down, unfair advantages in competitions, the compromise of the integrity one games journalism website initially, and the integrity of a whole host of other websites who tried to stop or censor discussion on this topic, and the integrity of many other publications who have printed outright lies or have failed to acknowledge the reasons why people are so pissed off. There have been victims of her and her acquaintances actions.

            The witch hunt on Zoe Quinn or any other person is deplorable, but people are mad because this event just mirrors problems in journalism (games or otherwise) and society at large. Lots of collusion and cover ups, abuse, manipulation, lies and deceit and nobody is willing to hold anyone accountable because putting someone on the spot makes us feel uncomfortable. People are right to be angry about that, and when things don’t change or get adressed their anger boils over into hatred

          • Josh Wirtanen

            “Quinn’s actions have led to a charity drive being shut down,” (proven false a long time ago – There was no actual “doxxing,” the site crash was due to heavy traffic and not hacking, and TFYC was still fully funded; they’re making a game now.)

            “unfair advantages in competitions,” (also proven false, despite the insane conspiracy theories that imply this)

            “the compromise of the integrity one games journalism website initially” (possibly, though Totilio was super fast to respond, clarify the issue, offer an apology, and update Kotaku’s policies)

            “and a whole host of other websites who tried to stop or censor discussion on this topic” (maybe, maybe not. It depends on which sites you refer to and how loosely you define terms like “censorship.”)

            “and the integrity of many other publications who have printed outright lies” (the mass GG outcry on Twitter, 4chan, 8chan, reddit, YouTube, etc. is spreading massive amounts of misinformation, like pretty much everything I’ve already pointed out as being false above, along with several other things)

            “or have failed to acknowledge the reasons why people are so pissed off.” (there are several reasons people are pissed off, perhaps dozens of them, and I’m pretty sure every single one of them has been acknowledged by at least a handful of sites, despite the fact that a majority of them are based on misconceptions)

            “There have been victims of her and her acquaintances actions” (Just as there have been victims of other people’s actions, such as bomb threats, doxxing, harassment, etc., all of which is verifiable within minutes to anyone who cares to look.)

            None of this justifies TheZoePost. Quinn’s butthurt opponents have done more to destroy the gaming industry than Quinn ever has or will, regardless of whether or not she’s a terrible person. The bottom line here is that there are “journalists” who have been working tirelessly to prove to the world that games can be art, games can be inclusive, games are important, games aren’t just there to reinforce male power fantasies, etc., and all that work is being shit upon as the world outside the gaming sphere looks in at us and sees fighting, harassment, “swatting,” rape threats, witch hunts, developers being chased out of the industry, etc. How do you people not understand that this is destroying video games?

          • Andy W

            I think people have every right to be “butthurt” (that’s pretty low and to me that’s on the same level of calling Quinn a whore or some shit) this person slept around behind her partner’s back while claiming to represent justice, and her actions did hurt several other people. I accept that not everything I’ve heard is true, theres lots of misinformation being spread around by BOTH sides.

            I don’t believe any of this is destroying games, there’s many reasons for that. Game journalism is a big one, many publications have been in bed with devs and publishers for awhile. The whole controversy with Kain and Lynch and gamespot comes to mind, along with many other shit titles that got raves reviews. And what about the controversy over Mass Effect 3’s ending? All of these clickbait sites were quick to jump on EA’s dick and call gamers a bunch of entitled whiners because they were pissed off that the ending of a game that was supposed to be about having real choices and consequences consisted of one ending with different fucking colors! If game journalists want to prove games are art they can start by holding devs accountable and by providing accurate coverage and reviews.

            And yeah, I do feel that games suffer from playing out some really sophomoric and tropey scenarios. I can also say that I believe the witch hunt for ZQ is motivated partially by the hatred of women and that a lot of gamers are misogynists and either can’t see it or don’t want to admit it. I’m pretty tired of all this shit but I’m more tired of the people on any side who fail to see the dirt right beneath their nose. Nobody deserves to be the subject of a witch hunt but for christs sake man grow some fucking balls and hold people accountable for their shitty behavior. maybe people wouldn’t be in such a fit of rage if people had just held ZQ accountable for doing shitty things that were contrary to the image she had crafted

      • ASurvivor

        Gjoni doesn’t fit the definition of “jilted lover” as he ended the relationship.

        You’re reducing emotional and mental abuse (which followed the pattern of escalation towards physical abuse) to “just cheating”, which is a form of victim blaming, through attempting to diminish their experience/harm.
        (Note: Some European nations consider intercourse under false pretenses a form of assault, which means some may already consider it to have escalated to that level)

        It is incredibly difficult for survivors to have their abusers held accountable in any way in most countries. In the UK, there are changes occurring to include things abusers do outside of direct physical harm to be chargeable offences under the domestic abuse laws (which would likely cover ZQ’s actions). But, I’m not aware of any such action taking place in North America. So, there is no other mechanism currently available to survivors to use, except public call outs. These call outs, and Gjoni has stated this was his intention as well, are usually meant as a warning to others to avoid the abuser (abusers are serial), so they are less likely to take advantage of others. Victims are very rarely believed and evidence is always demanded, Gjoni has stated he provided the logs/post as an attempt to show it as irrefutable, and yet many have still dismissed him. He even tried his initial call out in places friendly towards his abuser to lessen the negative impact. But, those who follow your particular culture of silence immediately banned/deleted those and allowed the streisand effect and 4chan to direct it all instead.

        And then there’s the framing you use, “angry ex”, “handle it in private like a grown up”, “it will effect their professional life”, “victims are responsible for the consequences to their abuser,” these are all common victim blaming/silencing tropes. They are used on every sort of survivor; rape, assault, domestic abuse, you name it. You are part of actively creating an environment and culture where victims are afraid to speak out about what happens to them.

        Perhaps you don’t intend it, perhaps you just don’t understand, but there is literally no way for victims to “do the right thing” right now. If people come forward with an accusation without reams of evidence, they’re fakers/attention whores. If they accuse with reams of evidence, they’re the “angry ex”/vindictive. If they don’t come forward, they are enabling their abusers and responsible for future victims.

        Next time around, depending on the victim’s “which is the lesser nightmare for you” choice above, we’ll see a different, equally silencing song and dance from the public/bloggers/journalists. Your articles are in the end, just one of the flavors of public enablers/apologists.

        • snaruh

          I will give you that Zoe was irresponsible and has documented mental
          health problems. I don’t believe she had those flings to mess with Eron
          however. I think it is more of a self esteem issue. She is trying to
          validate herself and prove to herself that she is attractive by sleeping
          with these men.
          OKC is hive of people who thrive on attention on
          valdiation( no one is on there “just to meet people”) And a lot of them
          are lonely, on the rebound, don’t know what they want or are suffering
          from some sort of cluster B type of disorder. Toxic, messy and short
          lived relationships happen all the time on OKC. Not to blame Eron for
          what happened- but its’ clear that when he said he didn’t love her and
          their relationship started to flounder she started to look for
          validation elsewhere. Her only mistake was to continue the relationship
          with Eron. If you think Zoe is guilty of gaslighting than every singly
          person on OKC is guilty of the same. No one on a dating site presents
          themselves as they really are. Thats’ why there is so much frustration
          and disillusionment.

          • Andy W

            It seems to me that you’re trying to make her abusive behavio out to be not as bad as it is, and that’s pretty shitty man. abuse is horrible and we shouldn’t downplay it because of how common it is. we should call people’s shitty behavior out, tend to the victim and motivate the abuser to seek help. any less than that and you’re just enabling the abuse in our culture

          • snaruh

            Calm down. I’m not saying toxic relationships are cool- but they happen. You can’t very well stop it from happening sometimes. Not everyone who is in a toxic relationship is terrible person. It helps to have some understanding to avoid them or handle them better. By ‘calling out’ all you are really doing is furthering the abuse of ZQ. And there is plenty of that already. How can you hurl abuse at someone you never met? Never even heard their side of the story? Have you ever experienced a toxic relationship?

          • Andy W

            Should we just let it fly then? Are people wrong in being angry about someone’s wrongdoings and attempts to cover up them up? I don’t support abuse, but I can understand why people would become so hateful when so many people have tried to cover up and excuse abuse, manipulation, collusion, and corruption. You said it yourself, people are frustrated and disillusioned, why the fuck aren’t we doing something about it? It’s wrong to abuse and vilify people for their actions, but we should hold people responsible for the shit they do! I’m sick and tired of this line of thinking that people are shitty and that’s just the way things are, I’m mad as hell and I’m not gonna take it anymore.

          • snaruh

            There is a world of difference between systematic manipulation and physical and sexual abuse and what had Eron and Zoe had which is pretty much a dysfunctional relationship. This happens all the time on OKC- you only see a profile, not the person. It takes a long time to actually know a person but Zoe and Eron hooked up on the first night.
            Eron is too young and naive to be a good judge of character, or understand how these things work. He should have known a lot sooner that Zoe- being recently divorced and experimenting with all kinds of things including multiple partners and burlesque- would not be ready for a serious relationship. Most, if not all- of the alleged infidelity took place during a break so Zoe is really only guilty of not being what Eron hoped she would be. He, like those who anonymously attack her- took offense to her lifestyle and choices. I don’t believe Zoe meant to hurt Eron, but was too wrapped up in herself to see how she could hurt him. I’ve read the Zoe Post and there is a lot there to indicate Eron was also not that interested in a full on commitment. You could say she is promiscuous, self absorbed and perhaps a bit obnoxious. But an abuser? Hardly. Does anything about this story deserve world wide attention? No. Does Zoe deserve the amount of horrid abuse she got including death threats and accusations ( false) that she traded sex for reviews? Absolutely not.

          • Andy W

            As above, so below. The reason why the world is in such a state of chaos is because we accept and tolerate chaos in our own communities, relationships, in our own lives and minds.

            To me it’s pretty obvious ZQ was abusive and it scares me you don’t realize it, can you relate to some of her behaviors or something? I don’t think Eron is innocent either, I think he’s abusive in his own way and I think on a deep, subconscious level he might have been drawn to an abusive relationship. And it doesn’t matter if you intend to hurt someone or not, when you’re abusive, gaslight, and sleep around, you’re responsible for the hurt you cause.

            The reason this debacle got so much attention is because for some reason all kinds of different websites decided to censor a conversation which would have just died out on its own. And like I said, it reflects larger problems of society that people have either become complacent about or aren’t discussing. (abuse in relationships, misogyny, the problems of extremist feminism and SJW culture, witch hunting, corruption, etc etc) people have mostly moved on from the zoe post though and now theres just a big shit smear of a culture war going on

          • snaruh

            No offense to you personally, but god its’ like every one who attacks Quinn on the internet came out of the same circle jerk session from 4chan or youtube or wherever- You all say she gaslighted but she didnt deny anything- eventually she pretty much told all. And after reading the Zoe post I didnt see any instance where she told him he was crazy or put him down to control any conversation, but there are PLENTY of instances where he is snarky and even threatening. Do you guys even read the post or just skim for the parts that interest you?

          • Andy W

            Committing abuse and later denying it is a form of gas lighting, but that doesn’t matter it seems like you’re committed to defending Quinn no matter what. In your own words you don’t think lying or infidelity are terrible, I don’t need to take the words of someone with such little care for decency seriously

          • snaruh

            Yeah except she didn’t deny anything. You want to know why Eron never explains HOW he found out about the affairs she had? Because she fucking told him thats why! Just because she didnt immediately tell him about the five guys after it happened doesnt mean she hid it from him because THEY WERE ON A BREAK. If you look past all the snarky metaphors its’ pretty easy to decipher. At first she didnt want to tell him about that Robin guy but after he asked she told him. The only part that even remotely sounds like gaslighting is where he describes the conversations they had about ‘trust’ and how Zoe tries to convince him he can trust her- but instead of moving on with the relationship he keeps trying to bring up the five guys and dig up dirt on her. At this point he isn’t concerned with having a healthy relationship with her, he only wants to re-hash the drama and humiliate her.

          • snaruh

            When did I ever say that I personally am cool with lying and infidelity? Totally not what I was trying to say. I was trying to give rationale/ explanations of how fucked up things can get with online relationships.

            Definitely not saying that its’ cool. I’ve been there and its’ fucking terrible. I went out with OKC regulars who had total bullshit fiction for profiles, then they would try to lure me in with love bombing (sociopathic technique) manipulations and complete lies. One guy I met told me he was in IT, a homeowner and all sorts of BS, turns out he is chronically unemployed, lives at his parents’, is an alcoholic and has a nasty toxic personality and would sext with other girls on OKC all day long. But when I told him I was done he would blow up my phone and hurl all sorts of abuse and threats at me- for doing nothing other than not wanting to date him because he was a total nightmare of a human being. OH- and this guy was a total fan of 4chan, so thats what I picture in my mind everytime I hear of someone dealing with some low life troll from 4chan.

      • snaruh

        Agreed. Shitty OKC relationships turn toxic all the time. When they do you cut your losses, get away from that person and blow off steam by getting drunk and bitch to your friends. But what does Eron do? He drags it out another two or three excruciating months knowing it isnt repairable. He says he wants ‘closure’ but really he just wants to ‘win’ and punish Zoe. Its’ natural when you break up with someone to want to feel that you are 100% right and they are 100% wrong but that is seldom the case.

        Then because Eron didnt get enough chest pounding in, he spread her story out to all the troll-iest places over the internet, knowing well what kind of a reaction it would get because Zoe was already a target for harassment. Creep.

  • The_Last_Ride

    He doesn’t know for sure though…

  • Luis Daniel Yanez

    Honestly, Eron should be put in jail for what he did.

    • John Cobalt

      Psychological violence such as performed by ZQ should be punished by jail time.

      • His Shadow

        Because Eron has substantiated his claims to the degree where we can take him at his word? And you think you know enough about the dynamic to qualify this a “psychological violence”?

        • John Cobalt

          No but I can read the messages which Zoe acknowledges, read the post to find that. There is no doubt about it being abuse(violence).

          • His Shadow

            Good. So what does this have to do with ethics in gaming journalism?

          • John Cobalt

            Nothing, we were discussing jail time for abuse.

          • Andy W

            Because Quinn slept with a bunch of industry people, some of whom were journalists, and when the people and companies tied to this whole mess found out the word was out they tried to shutdown the conversation and point fingers elsewhere. People have been fed up with how shitty game journalism is and how annoying and shitty ideologues are for a long time, this event was just the catalyst that made people start talking about it.

    • JenkPac Shakur

      If you’re ever unfortunate enough to become the victim of a borderline personality disordered sociopath such as Zoe Quinn Luis you’ll change your tune about Eron very fast.

  • Dave Het

    If this guy had posted about just some girl that nobody knew about, she would have been ignored. But this was somebody who was somewhat known in Steam circles, was accused of getting her game pushed through due to relationship influence (or nepotism) over other more potentially desirable games on the platform, and unjustifiably had a feminist campaign shutdown over a transexual policy that was deemed fair legally and ethically by professionals who study that stuff. It’s bad enough that she slept with a bunch of game journalists while cheerleading her game.

    • Adam Griffin

      Aaaaand we’ve learned nothing. Thanks for that. You’ve just summed up everything that is screwed up about this whole affair: random dudes on the internet talking about things as if they were a part of it and it’s all fact. You’re gossiping, you’re making some fairly serious and nasty accusations and I’m guessing you’ve never once met any of the people involved? Do you not see a problem with this? Do you not see the damage you do simply by repeating what you’ve heard as if it’s true and forming an opinion of someone you’ve never met based on gossip and here-say?

      • Dave Het

        I read everything from the entire Zoe Post, all the Gamers are Dead articles, articles criticizing the collusion on those articles, articles going into other details showing tweets and tumbls and YouTube videos, blah blah blah, I even listened to the original interview with Matthew Rappard of The Fine Young Capitalists about Zoe’s harassment and doxxing (of TFYC), the chan postings she and others made (on both sides), the Steam users’ side of things… I wouldn’t even be posting here or a GamerGate supporter if I hadn’t done all that research. My guess is I’ve done at least twice as much as you and all you’ve read is the GameJournoPro articles and Chris Plante’s Vox/Verge articles and all the mainstream articles that just took things at accusatory face value and hardly got into the details (which becomes apparent the more research you do) and got so many things wrong in the face of such easy to substantiate evidence they should be ashamed to be journalists.

        There’s no problem with some random guy trying to figure out GamerGate, and you don’t have the foggiest clue how much I’ve read and seen, and I don’t need to meet any of these people to have an opinion of them or write a synopsis from my viewpoint. You can find out the truth yourself, but you can’t deny the evidence.

        Here’s an example:

        • Adam Griffin

          I’m not making a point about who has more information and who knows more. I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that there is no problem with having that kind of discussion without never actually knowing any of the people involved. When you see everything from behind a computer screen it dehumanises the entire experience. You simply wouldn’t say those same things if you met Zoe Quinn face to face, but from the safety of the anonymous internet you think making personal value judgements about her based on limited information is a valid thing to do. I see incredible harm in engaging in that kind of discussion and at the very least it contributes nothing positive to the community. It’s mindless gossip and unless you’ve been personally effected it’s none of your business. You’ll happily contribute to a campaign to tear down this woman simply because you want to have an opinion about it. I find nothing redeemable in that.

          • Andy W

            when you as a public figure craft your persona on informing and educating people on social injustices, and evidence comes to light that you do shitty, shitty things (and yes, there is plenty of evidence including Quinn’s own words that support the idea that she is a person of weak character and has done many abusive, manipulative and just generally shitty things to people).. people are going to talk about those things and proceed to take the piss out of your crafted persona. people are animals like that, but in a way it protects us from people who would manipulate us by appealing to our progressive nature,

            the reason people are so pissed off and why gamergate is still going on is because shitty people are being propped up as voices of progress, and then these people try to shove an ideology down everyones throat. they then proceed to dictate that the only real progress is one that meets their ideals and conditions, and they antagonize and dominate anyone who disagrees with them, even if it’s a person of color or a woman.

            that being said its really sad what people have done to Quinn, and I don’t condone anyone’s shitty behavior (doxxing, threats) no matter what guise its done under.

          • Dave Het

            I think 99% of the internet disagrees that they shouldn’t talk about people they don’t know and just read about, and shutting that down would stop all social movement outside of direct circles. I really don’t think you know what you’re saying.

            Reading the Zoe Post is exactly what humanized some name on the screen like Zoe Quinn and Eron Gjoni; him describing their relationship and quoting their words humanized them even more. The more I read about people the more humanized they become to me.

            I probably would say some things to her face that I think, and some things I wouldn’t say because they wouldn’t have a productive outcome (because she would just plain disagree with me or be offended). Just because I wouldn’t say some things to someone’s face or they wouldn’t accept it doesn’t mean it’s not legitimate or accurate, nor that I shouldn’t say it anywhere else.

            I absolutely can make value judgements about someone I read online, in fact it’s the first thing people naturally do when they read about someone, and the more I read, the more my judgements refine or change. Obviously nobody can know everything about someone except themselves, so to say I shouldn’t judge or comment on someone because I don’t know everything about them is delusional and just pure oppression because you don’t like the opinion.

            You’ve made plenty of judgements about me based on what I wrote, and you don’t know me, so you obviously want the same rights and privileges of speech and observation that I have. It’s absolutely my business because she has done some of the same things ex-girlfriends of mine have done, and she has had a negative impact on a charity trying to get more female devs into the gaming industry, which I take personally because I am a dev and I want more females to feel more able to get into the industry.

            I have zero interest in tearing down someone unless they are actively trying to tear down something I support, and your judgements about me are incorrect and in contradiction to your own statements about commenting online.

          • Adam Griffin

            All probably valid arguments. Except for one thing: you don’t know her AT ALL and she’s not here, participating in this discussion. Of course I don’t know you and I’ve made some comments on what you’ve said but my comments are limited to just that i.e. what you’ve said here. I’ve commented on your specific actions here on this message board. I’ve said next to nothing about you as a person, who I think you are or other aspects of your life. You volunteered details, opinions, by posting them in a public forum so you expect them to be consumed by others, by random strangers and people you’ve never met. That’s what I’m responding to and it’s all a very accepted scenario. We are both here by choice, willingly, and implicitly we give permission to each other to engage in this discussion. Neither of us can have any complaints if we don’t get a response that we like and if any of what we said here was propagated further onto other message boards or the world at large we’d be prepared for that. Both of us invited this conversation and if we didn’t want to have it we could have chosen not to. No one “outed” you as a Zoe Quinn critic and, without your permission, posted your views on a public forum. You did that so what happens here is as much under your control as it could ever have been.

            The problem I have with people commenting on Zoe and propagating opinions and second hand information is that she’s not here directly participating in the discussion. She has zero control. She didn’t invite this, didn’t give her consent, didn’t initiate this discussion. I assume that you’ve not contacted her directly to express your views otherwise you would have said so. You’ve not asked her side of any of this nor invited her to respond to your assertions. You’ve never met her, talked to her, known her personally. You could, but you choose not to.

            You justify your right to “tear her down” based on what you think you know about her and, OK, you probably do have a decent body of information to work with. But you could have so much more and from my point of view it seems as if you willingly deny yourself the opportunity to be involved in a much more direct discussion. You could very easily contact her directly, introduce yourself, express your concerns to her and see what she says. That’s not even face to face, you need only find her email address and send her an email. But you don’t. Instead you read about her, taking information anonymously and safely, gathering things from a distance and yet still feel as if you have some intimate and genuine appreciation of who she is and what she’s done.

            You then feel comfortable making a value judgement that she DESERVES to be ridiculed and scrutinised in this way. In part you do so because apparently 99% of people on the Internet think it’s OK to publicly discuss whatever they like without consequence or consideration. Fine, I’m not going to disagree with your new generation philosophy, I probably felt that way when I was your age too. In part you do so because she’s apparently a public figure. But what Eron disclosed were private details and you continue to disclose those same pieces of information. Not that she has certain opinions that she posted herself, not that she took actions in a public sphere that she couldn’t possibly expect would go unnoticed. But that she had intimate relationships with certain people and the details of those relationships are disclosed in the public domain. Disclosed, discussed, dissected, analysed, repeated and used against her in aggressive and appalling ways.

            Go back and read your original post again. Go now and look at it. Look at the last sentence. You’re seriously trying to tell me that publicly broadcasting something like that about someone you’ve never met, never spoken too, never contacted and only have limited second hand information on is OK?

            The underlying issue has never been about just a handful of actions that were already in the public eye. I have no issue with the discussion of the known public actions of Zoe Quinn. Her questionable public behaviour is there for everyone to see and if that brings her bad press then that’s only something she could have controlled. But you and the rest of the gamergate community seem to hide behind those issues as if they are all that you’re talking about when they simply are not. They’re not even what Eron originally posted. What he posted, what was repeated, what you are discussing freely and what is likely the source of most of the horrific abuse that gets directed at her are the private, personal details that none of us have any right to. All the talk of journalistic integrity and corruption in an industry is one thing but it’s entirely beside the point that millions of people on the Internet are talking about someone’s sex life like it’s a god damn soap opera.

            Put simply: I fundamentally disagree with anyone pushing their right to talk about the personal life of someone who doesn’t freely offer those details. I disagree with anyone continuing to discuss those details without even attempting the basic courtesy of contacting the person being discussed. I disagree that there is any value in talking about who someone has slept with and what happened in an emotional and personal relationship, at the very least without the permission of both people involved and hearing both sides of the story. I think engaging in that kind of talk is damaging and hurtful and achieves nothing for a community. It’s no different to casual gossiping, made all the more abhorrent by how easily that information can be broadcast to literally billions of people.