Phil Fish Goes on Epic Twitter Crusade to Defend Zoe Quinn

Phil Fish Back on TwitterSome of you may have noticed that “Phil Fish” was trending on Twitter. Is he announcing a secret project? Has Fez 2 been un-cancelled? Is he just having another meltdown?

Well, it actually starts with Zoe Quinn.

Zoe Quinn created Depression Quest, and has been suffering for it for a while now. The Steam Community hates her for making a game they claim isn’t really a game, and 4Chan hates her because she’s female and they’re 4Chan.

For example, this glorious piece of prose was graciously added to her Wikipedia page before the moderators found and removed it:

Zoe QuinnHer ex-boyfriend, Eron Gjoni, has been feeding fuel to the fire lately, publicly accusing her of sleeping with basically everyone in the gaming industry in order to get coverage for her game, including Nathan Grayson of Kotaku and Joshua Boggs (“who is both her boss and married.”)

So where does Phil Fish come in?

Well, he decided, in epic Phil Fish Twitter fashion, to defend her honor.

Phil Fish Twitter Meltdown

As great as the term “ball-less manboobs” is, the gaming community wasn’t all too happy to have it applied to them, so they retaliated. Phil Fish decided to both defend his simultaneous position as “Video Game Apologist” and “Enemy of Gamers” with some more unkind tweets:

Phil Fish Twitter Meltdown

As things got more heated, Phil Fish began reacting the way he always does: by “cancelling projects.

Phil Fish Twitter Meltdown

Fish, loving the attention, had to point out that he was trending:

Phil Fish Twitter MeltdownAnd that, my friends, is why Phil Fish was trending on Sunday night.

  • Niko of Death

    “and 4chan hates her because she’s female and they’re 4chan”

    Or maybe because…

    1. She posted about herself on wizardchan to pretend that she’s being harassed by them
    2. She slept with “journalists” who
    3. She slept with a man who she knew was married
    4. Forced her boyfriend that she was cheating on to not talk to his depressed best friend
    5. She’s a giant hypocrite
    6. She didn’t give the same assurances to her boyfriend as he did her
    7. She made a game that is a mockery of a serious mental condition

    • Spencer

      Any proof she did all that or is it just whiny internet hearsay?

      • Diselt

        Her ex-boyfriend is the one who posted it, so it’s difficult to say whether or not it’s truthful or just total bullshit.

        • mike d

          Again, read the actual links. It’s not ‘total bullshit’ he-said-she-said, he provides pictures of all the chat logs with her. It’s coming from the horse’s mouth.

          • Diselt

            I’m in the process of reading it and it seems legit now. Not that I was ever defending her in the first place, just expressing skepticism since I don’t blindly believe everything I read, i.e. herd mentality.

          • Tyler Marcoz

            The main problem was the rampant and so readily accepted belief it’s just being made up to smear her. Likewise, the ready belief that 4chan is just some horrible group that hates anyone non-white and non-male, as if perhaps maybe their vitriol, while often extreme, is not so easily triggered.

            Because its not. 4chan is a boiling cauldron of half-serious rage and mostly anonymously driven trolling and counter-trolling interspersed with the sort of interesting discussions anonymity can bring. Anonymity can also bring boldness, and not always in a good way, but protected from the threat of identification, its easier to be driven to react to things that otherwise you might let go due to social constraints.

            That doesn’t, though, make them wrong. 4chan, which really can’t be called 4chan as there are dozens of boards on 4chan, many of which hate EACH OTHER and then ally for projects in strange fashion (case in point, we all get together to play digital soccer in inter-board play where each board has a team and cups are held.) Specifically roused here easily are the insane cesspool of /b/, the defensive /v/ (Video Games), and sometimes things like /r9k/ which is hard to explain, and /pol/, one of the most politically incorrect yet most useful points on the internet IF you can penetrate the dense board culture smog and get past kneejerk reactions to what you see or read.

            Simply put, 4chan rarely attacks unjustified targets. Their actions in attack may not be defensible, but as a actually good meter of something being legit or not, if 4chan actually is mobilized against you, YOU PROBABLY FUCKED UP SOME HOW. It’s not because you’re a woman. It’s not because you’re a SJW or any other category, not at least in the way you think. It’s something you DID, something sleazy, corrupt, or hypocritical. Information flows FAST on 4chan. And responses are not ‘organized’ so much as they are organic growths, like a strange creature composed of ten-thousand screaming mouths driven by a separate brain fed bits of the same information and thrusting pseudopods out to grasp their enemies AND prey.

            I challenge you to find something, particularly video game related, that 4chan has been ‘wrong’ about? Not, again, to justify their actions, but rather using their reaction as a compass to navigate. Also, consider that they do go after more than women targets, its simply you tend to hear about females because people more readily rally to their defense, which drives them even harder. Again, none of this is justification, it’s pure explanation.

            A savvy internet ranger knows how to read the trails. When 4chan stampedes, a skilled hunter knows to follow. Amongst the gnashing teeth will be truth.

          • Diselt

            Well that was certainly a…passionate post. I get what you’re saying, but I don’t really pay attention to 4chan or any other internet group/faction/meeting place/whatever, so it’s mostly irrelevant to me, lol. My only experiences with that culture is when someone, usually my friends, links me to things related to them.

          • Timothy Schmid

            I love this post. I don’t romanticize 4chan quite as much, but it is certainly a necessary niche in the internet’s ecology. 4chan is as close to no bullshit as you can get, because the bullshit is entirely in plain sight.

          • Ghiji

            Neah, you don’t remember their past history with killing Zelda-related forums or posting crazy-colors gifs in forums dedicated to epileptics. Or hacking random Myspace pages. Or defacing various games, especially ones made for kids like Habbo Hotel and Club Penguin. It’s all documented on Encyclopedia Dramatica.
            The hacktivisim thing is recent, and even that one is fairly twisted. Like in this case with Zoe Quinn. The whole argument started from people mocking her game for not being one. You can tell someone’s an uneducated idiot when they call a a text adventure (a genre older than fucking Mario) “not a game”. They also showed contempt for Zoe “promoting” the game after Robin Williams died. Which sounds like a good criticism, if the game was not RELEASED ABSOLUTELY FOR FREE.

            So they attacked for absolutely no proper reason, then the boyfriend posted that absolutely intimate stuff, then they started digging more crap on her and that’s where we are today.

            Look, I lurk and post on 4chan every single day. My regular boards are /a/, /v/, /vg/, /vr/, /mu/, /tv/, /r9k/, /lit/, /diy/ and sometimes I go to /g/. There IS good stuff on it, if you pay attention and you ignore the undesirables. But their “raids” and their plans on turning shit upside-down were never genuinely good. Don’t be fooled by the fact that in some cases they turn out to be right (like with the Scientology scandal in 08).

          • Tyler Marcoz

            Except you listed things /b/ did, not 4chan.

            No, the argument did not start over Quinn’s game/non-game (there is a legitimate argument that there is a point a text-adventure becomes a not-game; that is not always an insult.) That argument had been made. You also ignore ‘absolutely free’ is fairly irrelevent in the new-media world we live in where people make money off things that aren’t, you know, sales. Something tells me her Patreon account may have gotten a bit more flush after the fact.

            You are linking different events together to try to make it seem ‘illegitimate’ and then saying the boyfriend came out. I also like how you toss out ‘intimate’ as if they is supposed to mean something Case in point? I didn’t know a damn thing about any of this till that blog came out. Most people didn’t. That is what mobilized people, and the suppression after the fact.

            You again go on to blame ‘raids,’ a nearly exclusively /b/ phenomenon, on boards at large. I can only assume ‘undesirables’ means ‘people I disagree with.’ I suspect you’re the sort that yells ‘go back to /pol/’ whenever someone posts anything at all controversial. Or, at the least, you think it and let others post it for you.

            Lets see what multiple boards working together have gotten outraged at, particularly videogames? The big two that of course will come up are Anita (which they were right about) and ‘Donglegate’ or whatever you want to call it (which they were ALSO right about.)

            Which was my point.

          • Madfoot713

            >Look, I lurk and post on 4chan every single day. My regular boards are
            /a/, /v/, /vg/, /vr/, /mu/, /tv/, /r9k/, /lit/, /diy/ and sometimes I go
            to /g/.

            >Don’t be fooled by the fact that in some cases they turn out to be right (like with the Scientology scandal in 08).

            Go fuck yourself, leejun fag. /a/ and /g/ don’t want feminist shitters on their board.

          • pandora delphy

            Oh hai Zoe.

          • Josh Wirtanen

            I have screencaps of Adam Sessler’s Twitter account, where he talks about eloping with Zoe and moving to Narnia. There’s even a picture of actual Narnia. That counts as “irrefutable proof,” right?


      • chocoman pastebin which describes the whole situation

      • mike d

        Yes, actually. Her ex posted all the relevant chat logs from her where she admits to all of the cheating and sleeping with journalists which addresses numbers 2-6, he even handily cites them as he goes through the story. As to 1 it’s pretty obvious to anyone who has lurked wizardchan that they are harmless; it is a literally a support group for depressed virgins. 7 sounds subjective, I’ve never played her game and don’t have any opinion.

        Try reading the links in the article next time.

    • Dickbutt

      As it turns out we know WHY Phil Fish is defending her, because that rabbit hole goes preeeeeetty deep.

      Thanks to the Technomagic of some people on the internet it has been revealed that the two of those people whose names Eron Gjoni did NOT post turned out to be indie devs, one of them being a FEZ dev and best buds with Fish, Brandon McMartin.
      You cant even make shit like this up.

      The mysterious Five Guys are:

      – Brandon McMartin, FEZ dev
      – Kyle Pulver, another Indie dev
      – Nathan Grayson, former RPS-Writer, now with Kotaku
      – Joshua Boggs, creator of framed and Zoes married Boss
      – Robin Arnott

      • Guest

      • Nyah

        Isn’t Kyle Pulver’s involvement in this contested? Looking at his profile, chances are he is still a virgin and will be in the coming 10 years.

      • David Streever

        You don’t know WHY; you only have a shaky theory based on who you suspect she had sex with. God, why are you people insinuating that you know so much about the motivations of people you don’t even know? Much like Phil, I’m defending her, but do not know a single person who knows her.

    • salvodaze

      Sorry, I don’t get your reasons. They hate her because of her private life that they shouldn’t have any idea about in the first place, but they do because her ex boyrfriend didn’t mind sharing?

      • Niko of Death

        If a movie star was fucking roger ebert to get coverage and good reviews there would be a massive controversy. It doesn’t matter how it get’s out, it’s still shady shit. If I did drugs and it’s part of my “private life”, should nobody be allowed to talk about me doing drugs if it’s revealed?

        • Jonnystheboss

          A better analogy would be if you were doing drugs, while also trying to be the poster-boy for staying clean. Then, when it comes out you are, everyone in drug-related news that’s enabling you tries to help cover it up and cries that talking about it is damaging your personal life.
          Goddamn, this doesn’t even touch on the whole internet SJW/feminism/white knight shit going on that sees the accused as a victim who can do no wrong.
          So much reverse-bullying. Fact checking must be really hard work.

    • David Streever

      how do you know she was the one who posted the comments against her? That seems odd. I first noticed her game last December, when I reviewed it on the IFDB, and even then there were sexist comments about her on Twitter and message boards.

      do you have actual proof that the anonymous comments railing against her on WizardChan were made by her?

      As for your other points…
      2. Why aren’t you criticizing the journalist? Besides, it’s already been proven that he didn’t write a review post-sex with her, so why do you care that she had sex with him while she and her bf were broken up?
      3. In the legal world, her married boss is the one who was wrong in that situation. That’s how power dynamics work. Why is she at fault?
      4. Did she enslave him? How did she force him not to talk to someone? that’s weird. Is he a robot without agency? Sometimes people get jealous in relationships, right or wrong, it’s not really our business is it? You only have his side of that story, so how do you know what really happened?
      5. In what way is she a hypocrite? Based on what her ex-boyfriend gossiped about her ideals? Why do you even know that? That’s not really our business.
      6. See 5.
      7. I didn’t see it as a mockery, nor did many other people I know, among them people who are diagnosed as clinically depressed and on medication. I’m not sure why you think it was a mockery, but that wasn’t my experience.

      Do you have anything substantial?

  • Madfoot713

    >The Steam Community hates her for making a game they claim isn’t really a game, and 4Chan hates her because she’s female and they’re 4Chan.

    That’s a lie. The 4chan community hates her because she attacked Wizardchan several months ago to promote her game. As for Zoe, what she did is disgusting (cheating on your SO with 5 different people in the space of two months), and it is disgusting that Phil Fish would defend her for that.

    • David Streever

      It is disgusting that people are talking about her sexual life. It is literally none of your business, her ex is a complete jerk for posting those private conversations, and EVERYONE needs to stop talking about it.

      Phil Fish is right; the lot of you are being children.

      If personal sexual lives were part of our artistic capabilities, Graham Greene wouldn’t have published his greatest works.

      The reality is that the author/artist is not your BFF & you do not need to know anything about them or their relationship.

      • Madfoot713

        It’s not her sex life. She slept with her reviewers and her boss. Beyond that, the shit she did to her ex bf was totally fucked and she has a history of abusing other people too.

        >If personal sexual lives were part of our artistic capabilities, Graham Greene wouldn’t have published his greatest works.

        Why? No one is preventing Zoe from publishing her games. It is just criticism.

        • David Streever


          The hive mind you’ve gleefully glommed on to is wasting pages of pages of nonsense on Zoe Quinn, a creative person who is entitled to a private life.

          You have no right to say anything about her private life, including, but not limited to, affairs she may or may not have had, sex she may or may not have had, and/or any other issue relating to her and her relationships.

          Do you think that the journalism on Depression Quest was biased? Despite the fact that journalists who you don’t think she had an affair with ALSO lauded it? The only real assessment of the game, and the coverage, is not her ex-boyfriends insane and petty online postings, but actually playing the game.

          I’ve played it. It’s remarkable. It’s well-crafted. Even the ex-boyfriend admits it’s a really wonderful game.

          That is all. Unless you can demonstrate that the game itself is bad, and not deserving of praise, please, shut up.

          • simplicissimus

            You’re right, no one has a right to speak about her private life.

            The problem lies in the conflict of interest in her allegedly sleeping with several game journalists. Whether she did this to push reviews for her game may or may not be true, but it looks bad either way.

          • Josh Wirtanen

            I don’t want to keep talking about this, but I feel like the mounds of misinformation on the Internet right now have forced my hand.



          • simplicissimus

            I agree and even her ex boyfriend admitted she wouldn’t have taken that course of action, but this frankly could not have been a worse time for something like this to come out.

          • Madfoot713

            Her game has received a ton of negative reviews, but people who submit games to Steam are able to remove reviews at their own discretion so those don’t get seen. I’m not talking about “5 guys” reviews, I’m talking about people criticizing it for being a bad CYOA and the author not really understanding depression (not saying she doesn’t HAVE depression, people with depression can be terrible at explaining it).

          • David Streever

            Thank you for making my point! If her game is actually bad, you can criticize her game without attacking her private life. I happen to think you are wrong, the game is brilliant, but that is fine; you can criticize her game. Shut up about her sex life; you can focus on your own if you just want to think about sex lives, or read some erotica. You don’t need to ever bring up another creative’s sexual history or private life again if you want to critique their game.

          • Madfoot713

            But you cannot criticize her game on Steam because she’ll delete it, and call it harassment.

          • David Streever

            That is untrue. There are dozens of negative reviews which you can find on Steam without even trying; they are at the top.

            If you write a review that talks about her sexual life/personal life, it should be deleted. That isn’t appropriate.

            If you write something relevant to the actual game mechanics, aesthetic, and experience (bugs, etc) of playing the game, that will *not* be deleted.

          • Madfoot713


            You completely ignored the fact that developers can delete reviews against their game /for whatever reason they want. Some developers choose not to, because they’re not assholes.

          • David Streever

            That was the sound of the ‘wrong’ buzzer.

            As I told you, there are dozens of negative reviews which *do not* refer to the private life of the developer.

            You *should not* have the right to leave reviews that criticize her *private life*, because it is *none of your business* and has *nothing to do with the game*.

            Did you forget everything I said to you?

            Grow up about 40 years, get a life, stop hounding a woman you’ve never met over internet, stop being so ascared of the real world, and get OVER IT.

            This is the sound of a gavel. Court dismissed.

          • Madfoot713

            Again, she has been removing reviews which criticize her game. This goes before August 20th too.

          • David Streever

            The example you posted talks about her sexual life. I found DOZENS of negative reviews that did not mention her sexual life.

            Please re-read all I’ve said; I’m still right on that one.

            Ultimately, it’s a free game, when you have a WAVE of infantile man-children who post what are really troll reviews, because they read her PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE with her ex, and now they are ANGRY!!! and trying to make the woman PAY FOR WHAT SHE DID, I think she has a right to delete the reviews.

          • Madfoot713

            She has the right to delete every negative review, and that’s a right she exercises enthusiastically.

          • faggot – sama

            hey dude it’s my private life to say whatever the fuck I want

            I have no right to attack, harass, or harm zoe quin. that is absolutely true as I live in a governed state. however, in a place that has no bearing on zoe quin, I’m allowed to say whatever the fuck I want, be however fucking stupid I want, and there’s not a damn thing you can say about it.

            also concerning depression quest “this game has a narrow portrayal of depression on top of a distinct lack of dialogue and character development. the prose is incredibly dry and its use of second person is completely unconvincing. it’s utterly barren as a novel, whether you call it interactive fiction or a visual novel. 40k words can be written in a weekend by any so-called writer.”

            “depression is a sensitive subject, but the fact that prose is boring or unambitious is not. I hope people can seperate the two. it doesn’t matter if your heart is in the right place if you do a poor job.”

            why the fuck do you believe you can run your mouth and others can’t? stupid people are allowed to be fucking stupid, that’s how the world works. just like you believing depression quest is well-crafted and remarkable.

          • David Streever

            Are you confused between legal rights & moral rights?

            Yes, you have a legal right to be a bully, to be sexist, and to persecute a woman with your poison pen. You absolutely are not doing anything illegal.

            You do not have a moral right, however, and I base this upon my belief that no one is perfect & all people so long as they are not breaking major laws should have a right to live and earn an income provided they can produce works that people want to pay them for.

            There are uncountable people having affairs, hurting their partners feelings, and having promiscuous sex. Presumably you do not have a moral imperative to judge them, do you?

            As such, you have no moral imperative to judge Zoe Quinn, harass her, or prosecute her in a public sphere.

            If you don’t like the game, you can review the game, on the merits of the game, without engaging in this childish and immature witch hunt to ‘catch’ Zoe living her life in a way you don’t like.

            Someone telling you what a bully and jerk you’re being isn’t the same as someone defining legal rules for conduct. What you are doing is, indeed, morally wrong, and actually indefensible. There is no logical defense of your insane, puritanical, psychotic attack on a stranger you’ve never met and never will meet.

            That’s my ruling, and this is the sound of a gavel.

          • Jonnystheboss

            You’re standing on a matter of principle that completely turns a blind eye to the individual account. Sure, that sounds reasonable on it’s own merit. But, in this case, you’re referring to a person who’s made gains off of publicly using their personal life. When you spend your time garnering internet followers and creating a public persona that espouses feminism and moral idealism it’s an entirely different story. If it makes you feel better you can consider all this negative attention as directed at said persona. Because what’s being attacked is fiction, after all.
            There are plenty of people who are aligned with the ideals she claimed to represent and had a great respect for her. These people have every right to comment on the situation. This isn’t some person we pulled out of a cave to string up on a witch hunt. It’s a public figure, a quite vocal one.
            The journalists supporting her have basically been engaged in bullying by not fact-checking. These other figures on twitter are spending their time trying to tear people down and using wide-targeted labels to insult any and all who call bullshit on the narrative we’ve been fed.
            I really don’t need to re-hash everything as most everyone who reads this is already current with the discussion, I’m sure.

            I’m just here to point out that your argument of ‘attacking’ a stranger based on their personal actions is completely BS in this case.
            Zoe Quinn is no stranger. What you could call her is a target.
            Court is in session.

          • David Streever

            Gains! Stop being a child.

          • Jonnystheboss

            An insult, how quaint. You’re really making a strong argument with that one.

          • Madfoot713

            >Someone telling you what a bully and jerk you’re being isn’t the same as someone defining legal rules for conduct.

            This is what people are doing to Zoe Quinn. Not harassing her, but criticizing her for her abusive behavior.

          • David Streever

            Oh God. Her PRIVATE behavior which is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS and is only revealed to you because you INAPPROPRIATELY read private emails and messages she sent.

            It’s NOT your business. What you do in public, on a public forum, IS something someone can respond to.

            Besides which.

            Seriously, stop typing, start thinking. You just used my position here, to defend your position. How can you do that, logically, as part of your argument?

            Do you know what Aristotle would call you for that?

            Look, I know you are frothing at the mouth about this, I see that. I know you think that you’re being logical. You aren’t.

            You’re just venting out some rage or whatever. Man, go punch a pillow, talk to a therapist, and just stop writing about Zoe Quinn. I think you can understand that you *never should have read* her private correspondence, and you never should think that you know the whole story after reading a one-sided account.

            Her ex has his take on it. You don’t know him, though, and for all you know, he did cheat on her.

            I’ve been the ‘him’ in a similar relationship; at the time, I was full of anger, and felt completely justified in doing *anything* to my then girlfriend.


            I didn’t. I realized that life goes on, and that persecuting some woman who made a mistake in dating me, and who made other mistakes after the fact, would be a sick and unhealthy thing to do.

            So I didn’t.

            I also didn’t run her down or destroy her reputation–although I could have–but I didn’t. Because, I realized, at the end of the day we all have our own version of the story, and no one can trust themselves that they are the 100% right party.

            Also, because I’m not a frothing at the mouth nut job.

          • Madfoot713

            Only it’s been explained her private behavior is not being criticized and no one is focusing on her ex anymore, they are criticizing her abusive, very public behavior, like harassing public imageboards and getting “women in gaming” events shut down.

            Besides, you people criticize people for their private behavior all the time. All those friends defending Zoe would be a lot more credible if they stood up every time someone in the tech industry gets fired for their personal beliefs or private indiscretions – instead, they’ve often been the ones enabling the kind of political correctness. Like, the very same individuals.

          • pandora delphy

            I can certainly say that I think it was disgusting for her to sleep with her boss, knowing that he was married. Depression Quest is not a wonderful game, in my opinion. It’s a very shallow look at what real depression is like.

          • David Streever

            Yes Pandora, you can certainly say whatever you like!

            As I can point out the sexism in your comment.

            1. Why do people keep saying she slept with her married boss? Why don’t they blame the boss, who violated the working relationship, by having sex with his subordinate?

            Furthermore, why is it your business? why are you reading her private correspondence with her ex? I was cheated on myself before, by a woman, and I had proof (in text form). I deleted all of the texts and didn’t tell everyone. That’s wrong. What he did was wrong. You reading it and going on an internet crusade against her is also wrong.

            2. I don’t really care that you dislike Depression Quest. I enjoyed it, you don’t. That’s okay. Not everyone has to like the same things.

          • pandora delphy

            Okay then! Glad we had this little chat!

          • David Streever

            I’m glad one of us enjoyed what was a pointless, momentary diversion.

      • Devin Abraham

        It’s about industry ethics, which makes it no longer her business. Also, one of the guys was married.

        • David Streever

          that is for him & his wife to deal with, not you.

          no one who slept with her reviewed her game; ONE man she MAY have slept with noted that the game existed (literally included it as one of I think 50 games in a list of indie games).

          That’s not favoritism or bias. He didn’t say ‘play this game, 5 stars’. He noted that this game *existed*.

          So, no, it isn’t about ‘industry ethics’. It’s a free game for crying out loud, so all this is about is what seems to be a bunch of dudes freaking out that a woman had sex they don’t approve of and an affair.

          It happens all the time; I don’t see you demanding that major films be pulled from the shelves, but this happens to *most* people in the film industry.

          do you not watch *any* film where the director, actors, actresses, or producers had sex you disapprove of?

          What about the ‘lead gaffer’? What about the 3rd gaffer?

          What about the cousin of the ADR recordist?

          It’s an incredibly stupid and invasive way to judge a game–on the sexual acts of the creator–and I guarantee you that you do not use this standard in *any other facet of your consumerism*. There is not a single product out there which you do not purchase because of the sex life of the creator.

          So, ask yourself why you care about this one. Do you see yourself in the role of Zoe Quinn’s boyfriend? Were you cheated on? Do you have misgivings about certain types of games that makes you latch on this? Do you have inappropriate negative feelings towards women in gaming that makes you latch on to this?

          I don’t know, and won’t pretend to know, what your damage is, but I do know–without knowing you–that you absolutely don’t give two shits about the sex life of the guy who prototyped the volume button on your smart phone, and you don’t give two shits about the stock boy who put the groceries on the shelf you bought last night, so your persecution of Quinn has to be coming from something OTHER than your deeply held convictions about sexual morality.

          • Devin Abraham

            I understand that it’s for him and his wife to deal with. I feel for her, though. All of the Zoe supporters were saying how they felt bad for her, even with all of the irrefutable proof of her wrongdoings. I feel bad for the guy’s wife, whether it’s my business or not. Through the whole thing, nobody seemed to fight for her! I still believe that it’s absolutely despicable. I have every right to feel that way, just as you are entitled to your opinion. I’m not talking about one game. I’m talking about her as both a professional and her as a person in general. I read the chat logs between her and her boyfriend, and saw what kind of sick, twisted human being she is. I’ve seen those words before, almost identically from someone that I dated. Zoe Quinn has no sense of reality. She doesn’t seem to understand that actions have consequences. She cheated on a guy five times, and guilted him each and every time. She admitted that everything that she said was a lie, and that she lied more to cover up her lies. She seems to have no conscience, and it sickens and twists around in me to know that people like her still exist in this world. It’s the same across any industry. It’s called professional ethics, and/or conflict of interest. I don’t like it across any industry. I wouldn’t ever see myself in the role of Zoe’s boyfriend. I’ve already dated crazy, and somehow made it out alive! If the stock boy is sleeping around, has herpes, and is touching my groceries, I absolutely would have an issue with it. If someone is putting together the volume button on my phone, and he gets away with doing a mediocre job because he had sex with someone, than I absolutely do give a shit about the volume button guy. I’ve been playing games my entire life, but this subject isn’t even about the games. It’s about the industry that makes the games, lack of professionalism, possible tainted gaming journalism, ect. I don’t believe in a generalized view of all of ANY type of people, whether they’re male, female, lbgt, purple, pink, yellow, orange, blue, whatever. I don’t care what you classify yourself as, as long as you at least attempt to show some respect towards your fellow man. Zoe doesn’t do that. Because of her, people in r/ gaming on Reddit were being banned, shadowbanned, and censored. She created a fake situation in which she was “doxxed”, and later admitted that it was a lie. It affected a whole lot of people. She falsely accused someone of rape, and later tried to take it back. She went after people on Wizardchan and accused them of raiding her life, when it was never them in the first place. She went there because it’s a place where she knows that many people who have been bullied go there for a haven. They can’t defend themselves, so she used them as a target to get herself more attention. I don’t do this for “issues towards women”, I do it for all of the people that are being silenced over it. This is our internet, too!

          • David Streever

            See, here is the other bit.

            *You* have done something morally wrong by reading those logs.

            Why did you do that? Why did you read private conversations, which were released and leaked by one party?

            I’m sure you’ve done something that upset or hurt someone else. How would you feel if that person put up the entire sordid affair in the view of the public?

            It isn’t right. Her boyfriend should have resolved the matter personally.

            You failed a basic part of the social etiquette code, but you demand that Quinn suffer because you now know something which you *never should have learned*?

            That’s your damage, man.

          • cloudstrife990

            Is this real life? The bottom line is that sleeping with your boss is unprofessional. Sleeping with people to get better reviews or a job is unprofessional. Not a single damn person here is “immoral” for reading about it. Are we immoral for reading things on wikileaks and then judging the government for spying on us? Your logic is so flawed and self serving that’s honestly astounding. Unfortunately, most of the country doesn’t agree with your ideals of “social etiquette.” Even if everyone hypothetically agreed with your social etiquette code, zoe quinn’s actions are still much worse than breaking that code. Her professional integrity is compromised by her actions, and that’s why people are up in arms. The fact that she compromised her integrity by screwing over her boyfriend multiple times is just even more deserving of contempt. You want to create a narrative where because she was found out, she’s the victim. She’s in the wrong here, and there’s no amount of mental gymnastics that’s going to change that. There is absolutely nothing you can say that is going to make you right, I’m sorry. You’re completely wrong. You can try to insult me, you can try to argue with me, you’re still wrong. People like you are the ones who enable sociopaths like zoe quinn.

          • David Streever

            Can you show me the reviews that were given by people she slept with?

            I think you misunderstand what happened, here.

          • cloudstrife990

            She admitted to it, you’re still wrong. Like I told you before, you’re wrong. Nothing you can do in this situation will make you right. Admit it and move on, please. It’ll be better for you that way.

          • David Streever

            Can you link to the many reviews made by men she slept with? This is the internet; is that really hard?

            You can’t, because they don’t exist. She *may have* slept with a man who *noted that her game existed* in a round-up of, what, 50? indie games. WHOA! That’s *SCANDALOUS*.

          • Jonnystheboss

            Here’s a tip for anyone that chooses to engage in any sort of rational discourse with David Streever here. Don’t be baited into discussing her sex life specifically. It’s far more important to this guy than it is the actual issue.
            If you want to discuss her manipulating the media and even our social playgrounds, calling in favors, go ahead and link the connections showing public contact between her and those censoring people discussing her behavior. Like the Reddit mod. Or the nameless admin shadowbanning once they got called out on it.
            If we were to remove sex from the equation entirely, you would still have the exact same case. The exact same connections.
            Don’t let people bait you into thinking what you care about is who someone’s fucking.
            Don’t let people derail the argument by trying to laud moral righteousness rather than discussing an actual argument.
            And for the love of knowledge, please get your damn facts straight, everyone. Although your conclusions are correct, people will constantly use argument from fallacy. This works by focusing on your improper support of a valid conclusion. Implying that your conclusion is wrong simply because you’re not getting the facts straight.

          • David Streever

            So, your advice to others is to not get basic facts incorrect, when speaking on an issue? That’s good advice! Being wrong about the basic facts of the matter do make it less likely that your conclusion will be correct.

          • Jonnystheboss

            Also, wrong.
            Who won WWII? Now explain to me in detail how.

            A failure for people to retain information supporting their conclusion following research does not invalidate a conclusion. Or have correlation to the likelihood of said conclusion being true.

            “I do not carry such information in my mind since it is readily available in books. …The value of a college education is not the learning of many facts but the training of the mind to think.”

          • David Streever

            Wrong comparison.

            “Tell me who the murderer was, Detective.”
            “It was Jim.”
            “We don’t know it was Jim. Can you prove it?”
            “Sure. Jim used this knife to kill Bob.”
            “You just opened the package that knife came in.”
            “Oh. Right! Sorry. Right. Well, anyway, Jim killed Bob, and I don’t know how or why or when or where, but yes, he did it.”

          • Jonnystheboss

            Try again. That has nothing to do with recalling information.

          • David Streever

            You have no information. Can you point to where Zoe Quinn got something via a lie?
            People are donating to her Patreon because they are disgusted by people like you. They know the facts. They choose to support someone who may have had affairs, because they’d rather support that person, and send a clear message to reactionary, conservative, backwards-minded individuals who can’t mind their own business.

          • Jonnystheboss

            You see, there’s the whole idea of burden of proof being on the accuser. In this case, all of the accusations originally came FROM Zoe Quinn.
            While we all have to muck through news sites and friends of hers taking up pitchforks and demanding that we stand up for this poor victim. All because she linked two comments from a board she doesn’t see.
            So many articles.
            And if you look at her Patreon, if you look at her steam greenlight votes, you’ll see people are donating money to her and outright saying it’s because they want to support her through this difficult time where she’s being attacked.
            This is why she’s NOW a target. It’s why Reddit, Tumblr, 4chan, and others have actually taken notice of something noone gave two shits about.
            Greg Tito came out and actually said that there is no burden of proof on the accuser (if it’s a woman). So he didn’t bother to fact check anything while complete nonsense was posted that brought her public support for a manufactured problem.
            We’re now getting articles about feminism and misogyny all because they’re great buzzwords that OF COURSE get everyone up in arms. While all of these articles completely ignore any facts or valid reasons for people to be upset. Twisting the narrative to appear righteous.
            This is exactly what you’ve been doing.

            You just called us reactionary, conservative, backwards-minded… do you even know what you’re saying? Or are you just wantonly passing around labels to cause maximum irritation?

            “They know the facts.” Do explain. If you’re referring to the fact that people are discussing her sex life. Or the fact that people are now widely upset at her and many others. Then I’m afraid you’re completely done here.

            I’m frankly bored with you refusing to acknowledge a single bit of the actual narrative or wrong-doing here. You’re a broken record. Trying to dress people down for being upset about being lied to and public manipulation, then hiding behind whatever paper wall that says “righteous” on it is still just bullying.

          • David Streever

            Right. A bunch of backwards dudes on the internet left a bunch of reviews on Steam criticizing Zoe for her sexual life. I saw them. How is that a lie? Are you unhappy with the term ‘raid’? Can you accept that a person being hit with a bunch of negative reviews, all at once, which focus on her sex life & not her game might feel ‘raided’, even if that isn’t the strict definition of the word you use?

            People donating money do see, exactly, what is happening. They see guys like you going on and on about how evil a woman you’ve never met is, based on a semantic debate over the term ‘raid’ and the one-sided claims of her ex-boyfriend.

          • Jonnystheboss

            That’s interesting. I never mentioned an ex-boyfriend. I’m going to need you to stop right there before you start dragging her sex life back into the conversation. I don’t care to hear those details.

            “This is why she’s NOW a target.”
            You’ll notice the distinction. Do you mean to say people were posting on steam about her ex-boyfriend before his news even came out? Because, they were certainly running articles about her being a victim well before.

            What you’re doing now is saying that everyone is wrong to be upset about having our gaming media shove complete nonsense down our throat. We’re wrong to be upset that we’re being censored. All because that poor poor girl has everyone mad at her as of this week.

            You’ve made it abundantly clear that you’re not familiar with any of the news. You’ve also made it apparent that you’re happy to ignore any points brought up unless you feel like you can spin a narrative about a victim. As if gamers aren’t the real victims.
            You’re done.

          • David Streever

            Oh yea, you’re the victim. Some websites you do not pay any money to read wrote stories you dislike. Seriously, man, I can not imagine your suffering right now.


            The gif you posted shows actual harassment before the stupid thing with the ex (which is the majority of comments here, on this site, which is why I’m talking about it) and even admits that she received phone calls from strangers masturbating into their phones.

            People writing reviews on her game, before the ex, saying that the game shouldn’t be played because she is a woman claiming she has been harassed is appropriate?

            None of that is appropriate, all of that is harassment.

            If you can post something, demonstrating the harassment she received, I don’t know what you think you’re proving.

            *THAT* is why people are donating money.
            A. Because some of us actually like her work! Amazing, right? We’ve played her games and LIKED THEM.
            B. The content you posted above IS harassment and I DO think it is valid, as do the people donating to her.

            Just because you don’t agree! that the level of harassment you’ve ADMITTED EXISTS is ‘harassment’ doesn’t mean that the whole rest of the world has to agree with you. The post YOU posted, the gif nonsense on imgur, is harassing. Why are there personal photos of her on it, that are irrelevant to the game she developed? What is that about? Seriously, why don’t you understand that personal attacks and photos of an individual who you don’t like, plastered all over the internet, is a form of bullying and harassment?

            The rest of us DO think it qualifies and we don’t care that you think she’s a liar & a weakling & a whatever. We don’t. We’ve seen all the same stupid things you’ve seen, and personally, think it’s none of our business and irrelevant besides.

          • Josh Wirtanen

            Woah woah woah. Did you just imply that gamers are victims because a game they didn’t like got Greenlit?

          • Jonnystheboss

            I’m not sure how that was your take-away. Especially when, in the same post, I’m describing censorship and issues with media.

          • Jonnystheboss

            I’m not sure how that was your take-away. In the same post I am talking about censorship and the media.

          • Jonnystheboss

            I’m not sure how that was your take-away. In the same post I am talking about censorship and the media.

          • Josh Wirtanen

            Reddit comments being deleted isn’t censorship.

            The thing with the media, there’s definitely weird things going on, and those things aren’t okay. Like false DMCA claims being filed. That’s a form of censorship, yes.

            However, all of the allegations about Quinn and Grayson having sex before the Kotaku piece went up have been debunked by this point. Even Eron has gone back and clarified the timeline, claiming he has no evidence that Grayson and Quinn were having sex before the Kotaku piece went live. If even Quinn’s ex boyfriend, the guy who wrote thezoepost, has no proof of them having sex before that point, then you certainly don’t, and no one in the media does either. The fact that so many of us who write for gaming outlets are being accused of hiding information and sweeping things under the rug is complete BS, and we’re all tired of it.

            I really don’t know what you want from “gaming media.” I really don’t. Do you want game journalism to be held to the same standards as political journalism? I assure you, that’s never been expected of games journalism in the past. Whether it should or shouldn’t be is a topic worthy of debate, but only if you can separate it from all the misogyny, misinformation, and rumor-mongering that’s surrounding the Quinn scandal.

            The media is choosing not to cover what they see as “tabloid rumors.” Because, honestly, who slept with whom isn’t gaming news.

            Grayson giving a game a high review score that was made by a person he’s sleeping with is worthy of a news story, but that didn’t happen.

            Grayson violating Kotaku policies by sleeping with a subject of his story while he was writing the story might be a topic worthy of a news story, but that didn’t happen, and that’s been confirmed by Grayson, Stephen Totilo, and even Eron Gjoni.

            Quinn lying about getting attacked by Wizardchan MIGHT be worthy of a news story, if anyone can prove it. No one can. What I genuinely think happened is that Quinn was harassed by someone claiming to be from Wizardchan. When she tried to call them out on it, she called out the wrong group. Which led a lot of people to start harassing Wizardchan members, which is all sorts of fucked up. But it’s STILL not a news story because it’s all rumors and people shouting at each other.

            The problem is that everything attached to Quinn that could be a news story is buried in hearsay, rumor-mongering, and screencaps of people making very bad arguments about things on Twitter. If Quinn’s covering this up, she’s doing a damn good job of it.

            Best course of action at this point is to wait for the dust to settle. Everyone is up in arms right now, and it’s impossible to have a rational conversation about any of this. In a couple weeks when people stop feeling so emotionally attached to the topic, perhaps we can have a conversation about the state of games journalism.

            If all you want to do is make the claim that “games journalism” is held to a very low standard, I’m 100% in agreement with you. But you can’t point to this Quinn thing as evidence of that, because it’s really not.

          • Jonnystheboss

            Is this thread broken? I receive emails but can’t reply in places.

            Josh, I’m not sure how that was your take-away. In the same post I am talking about censorship and the media.

    • Guest

      Sorry. Her personal life is none of our concern. Instead of pointing out that she fucked with 5 different people in the space of two months (I did it with 4 in the space of three and I’m a volunteer EMT, so I don’t think fucking around somehow negates that I put a vast amount of time helping other people in exchange for nothing), you should perhaps be questioning what the entire scenario implies about the industry as a whole.

      Regardless, even though I think Phil Fish is an authentic waste of space, I do want to address the absolutely ridiculous way you people have been perceiving this. Whatever she does with her sex life and her romantic relationships is between her and her partner(s). She made stupid mistakes, we heard a one-sided argument about it. We heard her boyfriend first so we are naturally inclined to side with him; since he was the one to point his finger and provide evidence for any claims we are also more likely to believe anything she provides as a counterargument will be false. This is a fallacious considering he may still very well be accused of lying and cheating himself, with very clear evidence. The possibility exists and thus the way people are perceiving this so linearly is utterly baffling to me. Please, exercise critical thinking.

      This is mob mentality and projection. Let it go, it doesn’t matter.

      What DOES matter, however, is what kind of negative impact her actions (as a developer, not a person) had on the industry; what kinds of questions it raises. THAT is what you should be pointing your finger at. Being a cheating girlfriend doesn’t make her a bad professional or a bad person; at best it makes her a bad girlfriend. Using unprofessional tactics or corruption to achieve a goal within the industry DOES make her a bad professional.

      The fact that she was accused of having lied and manipulated her way into the industry vastly outweighs the fact that she was accused of cheating on her boyfriend. If her corruption within the industry implies that it is simply /that/ easy to get known, published and written about, then it makes me question how sleazy some practices have been that we never knew about. Somehow, having that really beautiful experience when playing Journey doesn’t seem so magical if one considers the possibility that there could have been a large amount of submission some employees had to suffer through to get published by SCE. Somehow, the amazing design of Shovel Knight stops feeling so much like a return to good form when one considers the possibility of a lot of scrapped game elements, PR stunts and “ghost writers” that may have designed the game but were never credited for it.

      These are, of course, just examples and neither of them are true (to my knowledge). All I’m saying is that there are more important things to question other than how she uses her vagina and who gets hurt by it.

    • AliasAlterego

      Sorry. Her personal life is none of our concern. Instead of pointing out that she fucked with 5 different people in the space of two months (I did it with 4 in the space of three and I’m a volunteer EMT, so I don’t think fucking around somehow negates that I put a vast amount of time helping other people in exchange for nothing), you should perhaps be questioning what the entire scenario implies about the industry as a whole.

      Regardless, even though I think Phil Fish is an authentic waste of space, I do want to address the absolutely ridiculous way you people have been perceiving this. Whatever she does with her sex life and her romantic relationships is between her and her partner(s). She made stupid mistakes, we heard a one-sided argument about it. We heard her boyfriend first so we are naturally inclined to side with him; since he was the one to point his finger and provide evidence for any claims we are also more likely to believe anything she provides as a counterargument will be false. This is fallacious considering he may still very well be accused of lying and cheating, himself, with very clear evidence from Zoe’s behalf. The possibility exists and thus the way people are perceiving this so linearly is utterly baffling to me. Please, at least attempt to exercise critical thinking.

      This is mob mentality and projection. Let it go, it doesn’t matter.

      What DOES matter, however, is what kind of negative impact her actions (as a developer, not a person) had on the industry; what kinds of questions it raises. THAT is what you should be pointing your finger at. Being a cheating girlfriend doesn’t make her a bad professional or a bad person; at best it makes her a bad girlfriend. Using unprofessional tactics or corruption to achieve a goal within the industry DOES make her a bad professional and the fact that she so thoroughly seemed to defend that women can reach great heights in the videogame industry by their talent alone becomes a focal point — this is not what she has done at all and it further perpetuates this silly debate which can only possibly be held by uneducated people to begin with. Her case is unique and a good amount of women have made it big in the industry on their sheer capabilities but since drama and controversy always gets more attention, this entire thing will just keep bringing the subject onto the table more and more. This, as well, is far more concerning than her sex life.

      The fact that she was accused of having lied and manipulated her way into the industry vastly outweighs the fact that she was accused of cheating on her boyfriend. If her corruption within the industry implies that it is simply /that/ easy to get known, published and written about, then it makes me question how sleazy some practices have been that we never knew about. Somehow, having that really beautiful experience when playing Journey doesn’t seem so magical if one considers the possibility that there could have been a large amount of submission some employees had to suffer through to get published by SCE. Somehow, the amazing design of Shovel Knight stops feeling so much like a return to good form when one considers the possibility of a lot of scrapped game elements, PR stunts and “ghost writers” that may have designed the game but were never credited for it.

      These are, of course, just examples and neither of them are true (to my knowledge). All I’m saying is that there are more important things to question other than how she uses her vagina and who gets hurt by it on a personal level (and that certainly does not include you, or me, for that matter).

      • Madfoot713

        >Her personal life is none of our concern. Instead of pointing out that she fucked with 5 different people in the space of two months (I did it with 4 in the space of three and I’m a volunteer EMT, so I don’t think fucking around somehow negates that I put a vast amount of time helping other people in exchange for nothing), you should perhaps be questioning what the entire scenario implies about the industry as a whole.

        No one cares how many people you have sex with, it’s shocking and offensive when you do it in a relationship though.

        • salvodaze

          Yes because I’m sure no one around you ever did it and you were always, and I mean ALWAYS this rude and judgmental towards them too. Except you know, in this case, she has no relationship with you or pretty much 99.999% of the people talking about her private life.

          Internet dudebros are just so ethical when it comes to “slutshaming”, nevermind that they jerk off to their friends’ girlfriends every other they. Some morality, kids.

          • Madfoot713

            >she has no relationship with you

            I first heard about her when she accused a depression forum I go to of harassing her. A place with a Suicide Help hotline on the top of the page. But, no, I’m just slut-shaming and have a fear of women.

          • Turbo Mike

            I bang my friends girlfriends. Its fucking hot. They let me tho.

          • Vorpalrabbit

            I don’t know about you but when I find out someone has cheated on a significant other, it tends to inform me about that person’s character.

            And like it or not, she has achieved a level of fame within the gaming community which means her ‘private’ life may not be as ‘private’ as she would like. Ask a celebrity how it feels to have the media swarming them 24/7. They may not like it, but getting angry about it just fuels the fire.

            Regardless, Zoe Quinn has had it revealed that her character is shallow, abusive and manipulating. Why would I ever advocate buying a product from a person like that?

          • salvodaze

            “I don’t know about you but when I find out someone has cheated on a significant other, it tends to inform me about that person’s character.”

            A minimum of 25% of people cheat on their SOs. Do you jump in on a campaign to publicly insult and shame them for being a cheater? Or do you mind your own business like you should?

            Problem here is, this is not the 1800s anymore. You can no longer judge a person you personally don’t even know by their personal life. It’s not up to you and nobody cares whether you think it’s ethical or not. It’s simply not your call.

          • Vorpalrabbit

            When the news of it reaches my ears? Yeah, I chime in. Just like it’s very clear that everyone else would, on either side of the debate.

            The court of public opinion is still very much a thing, especially now when ALL information is readily available. Maybe people should start thinking about the repercussions of their actions.

            It is up to me whether I decide to give my money or my word of mouth recommendations to anyone I don’t find to be ethical or worthwhile, and that goes for games, reviews, ad clicks and anything else.

          • salvodaze

            I would never “chime in” when I hear about someone else’s love/sex life. Why would anyone feel entitled to? I find it very nosy and corrupt to be honest. And that’s my biggest problem with this situation.

        • David Streever

          you realize you told me 5 separate times that you never comment on her sex life and that her sex isn’t what this is about, right? But here you are, 9 days ago, saying that it’s shocking and offensive.


          Could you be honest with yourself for one second about this situation, instead of contorting and changing your argument every time to avoid having to face the truth, which is that you just need to let this one go?

      • Slick


      • Turbo Mike

        Your just another slut defending a fellow slut, so you u2 can engage in random acts of sluttery without accountability or repercussions. So now that we established you are a slut, because I am too, email me your number and we can hook up. Lollzzlzlz

      • morpheus richards


        The problem with sanctimonious folks like yourself is that you don’t seem to hold journalists and developers to the same standard that some others might. Sleeping with people while in a relationship is one thing, classifying that kind of thing as a form of rape beforehand is another, sleeping with hacks to advance your career is another different thing, and this is the thing with which we are concerned.

        So climb down off of your high horse, and maybe, rather than just accusing us of buying into a mob mentality (oh and projection, which I’m sure is a term you understand and aren’t just using to pillory people who disagree with you), you LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE. There’s tonnes, get it while its still tepid, because everyone else has had a slice!

        You abrogate your right to privacy when you meddle with and corrupt the press. Then it becomes an issue of institutional corruption, and the fact that people seem to think that this remains a ‘personal issue’ even after professional standards have been shat on and trashed just demonstrates that – by and large – people still see the games industry as a bunch of toddlers pissing about in the sandpit, chewing on sticks and crapping their pants. We take them seriously enough to hold them responsible for their actions, something that clearly nobody else is willing to do. They are manchildren, and will be treated as such until they grow up and stop treating their jobs like an extension of high school.

        • David Streever

          Can you show me all the reviews she got out of her ‘sex for reviews’ scam? So far I’ve only seen her mentioned by one of the journalists as a developer who made a game, in an article in which he names, what, 50 separate games?

          • morpheus richards

            The fact that you are even asking that question demonstrates the kind of level we’re on here. If this was any other industry, any other form of journalism, you’d understand the reaction 100%, but games? Nah, that’s just a hobby, and games journalism is just a hobby too, even if it makes bank, it can still be treated just like any other hobby! Whether there are no reviews or five hundred reviews doesn’t matter, its the breach in standards, the potential for abuse which would be unacceptable anywhere else, and concerning which we have no information because the sites involved refuse to even touch it.

            I can’t understand how people can still be defending her. They can say that some people may have gone too far, which they did, but actually defending her and saying she did nothing wrong shows that clearly you don’t care about wrongdoing when its somebody you like who does it. I may be reading into your intonation, but I’m pretty sure I’m not.

          • David Streever

            Hey ‘Morpheus’

            I’ll set your mind at ease. You certainly are not reading into my intonation.

            Intonation is the rise and fall in the speaking voice of an individual.

            How am I defending her? That’s really simple. Her sexual life is none of my business, nor is it any of yours, and your comments on her are abusive and sexist.

            If you can’t link to a single review she got in exchange for sex, you are just making an inaccurate and simple-minded judgement of her based on something she didn’t do.

            Again, could you link to the review she gained in exchange for sex?

            I’ll confess to being a bit facetious here, because I know you can not, but I’d still like to see you try.

            I hope my ‘intonation’ came through loud and clear on this one. If not, it was a bit sing-song, as if to mock you, or show you contempt.

          • morpheus richards

            Hey ‘Davey’~

            No point arguing with someone like you. Just watch the video and maybe learn something beyond your political sloganeering and smarmy self-righteousness.


            Someone’s sexual life becomes public business when it becomes a threat to journalistic impartiality. This has already occurred. The fact that you were so quick to slander me as a sexist shows exactly what the problem is. Its people like you, Davey. Politically motivated people who can’t actually see their own ideological motivations, let alone see past them.

            Why are people lambasting Zork Quonk? Because they’re all evil sexists of course! That must be it! It can’t be that games journalism is just a self-promoting clique of incestuous circlejerkers? No, that’s far too far-fetched. It can’t possibly be that games journalists aren’t being held to any standard whatsoever by a fawning, ideologically uniform group of fans who’ll support them no matter what they do wrong, because they think the same way, can it? But even if that is so, I still can’t show you that crucial piece of evidence, that sacred review upon which everything I’m saying rests, right? The fact that there is no professional distance in games journalism at all is totally irrelevant, isn’t it?

            Were you able to detect the sarcasm Davey? Considering you are such a master of the lexicon, I’m sure that you’d be able to puzzle out what I’m trying to say here.

            But in case you can’t, here it is: You have missed the point completely, and fixate on a single issue because you can’t understand why something like this matters. Really though, Davey, what gets me the most about pious little boys like yourself is the hypocrisy. I’m sure that if it turned out Fox was riddled with journos fucking their bosses and the people on whom they were reporting, you and your ilk would see where we are coming from, but lo and behold, Zapp Quilt agrees with you, she and her chums are probably quite like you, so they did nothing wrong.

          • David Streever

            And, in a turn of events that surprised no one, instead of supplying a single link, Morpheus Richards spits out 3 pages of pointless vitriol, desperately trying to hide the sad and pathetic fact that he has no argument and is just part of a crescendo of angry, bitter, resentful dudes.

            This isn’t a negotiation; you’re the one trying to make a point and failing. The facts are established; if you are unable to provide evidence, you are wrong.

            You can show me a single review that Zoe received from a man after she had sex with him, or nothing. There is literally nothing else that will support your accusation that Quinn has traded sex for positive reviews.

          • morpheus richards

            You remind me oF Jeremy Paxman. Utterly vacuous and lacking substance, so you act like a broken record and repeat yourself over and over again, until you ‘catch’ them. My honest vitriol is contrasted with your slime and trite sarcasm.

            You’re right, this was never a negotiation, and I am not under any burden to prove myself to you. Hang yourself up on a single aspect of this, plug up your ears and ignore the fact that the entire games journalism industry is composed of a single self-congratulatory clique.
            The evidence is: Zork lays five guys, all of whom are involved in the industry. The actual, established standards of journalism say that if a journalist sleeps with members of the industry they are covering, they OUGHT (moral imperative) to recuse themselves.

          • David Streever

            ….. Zq is not a journalist. No journalist slept with her before writing about her. No journalist wrote about her after sleeping with her.

            Did it really take you three months to write this nonsense reply? I gave you a job: show me one just one article written about Zoe by a journalist after they slept together.

            You still can’t show one, because they don’t exist.

            Guess what? Your vitriol may be honest, but it’s ignorant, uninformed, counter productive, and ridiculous. I’m a few years, I am positive that you will be embarrassed by your participation in the asinine stupidity that was goo-goo baby gate.

          • morpheus richards

            Sorry Davey, if I’d known you were waiting for my reply, I’d have been a tad quicker. Seriously though, Zim is a GAMES DEVELOPER. Grayson is a GAMES JOURNALIST. If you need that explained to you then I’m sorry Davey, but you might be a spacker.


            Some positive coverage of DQ, courtesy of Nathan Grayson. Hm? You were wanting a long, rambling review extolling the virtues of Zebedee Quirk? Hey now Davey, I said Grayson and his verminous buddies were unprofessional shills, not that they were stupid.

            Oh, but passive, positive coverage doesn’t count! It has to be about Zorba, and only Zorba? Every line must refer directly to how fantastic she is, and how unique her games are? So the underlying relationships we don’t see are totally unimportant, and not at all exploitable? Right then. Good to know that these are the standards of a pious newborn now.

            Oh, and Davey, I bet when you grow up, you’ll hide the fact that you were a smug, middle-class college cunt.

          • David Streever

            ha ha ha

            Sorry, mentioning that her FREE game literally exists in a round-up of 49 other games, before any sexual contact occurred, is not some terrible example of corruption.

            Also: you’re completely wrong about my socioeconomic class and education! I didn’t go to college and was actually homeless. Hey, enjoy being wrong on two counts today :)

          • Josh Wirtanen

            That “positive” coverage is suspiciously objective and neutral. DQ is listed as one of the standouts, “standouts” implying these are games the RPS readers might already be familiar with. Why would RPS readers be familiar with DQ? Well, perhaps because RPS had covered the game before. Look, here’s RPS covering DQ a YEAR before Grayson’s piece, and this one was written by a person who is not Grayson.


            Also, note that there were THREE standouts, not just one, and I bet that, despite Grayson’s article, you’ve not heard of the other two outside of the context of Grayson’s article. DQ did not become famous (or infamous) based on Grayson’s work.

            Also, note that the RPS article was published in January of 2014. This is AT LEAST 3 months before Quinn and Grayson became a thing, by the reckoning of everyone who was actually involved, including Gjoni.

            Your argument is STILL a non-argument. It was debunked months and months ago. It won’t magically become true because you keep repeating it.

          • David Streever

            So, basically, no, you can’t show me even a single review she exchanged sex for?

            What’s the issue then?

          • Josh Wirtanen

            To be fair, no one’s saying she did nothing wrong. Those of us with facts are just pointing out that the specific thing you people continue to call out did not actually happen.

            “The defendant slept with a journalist for a positive review score!”

            “We have evidence that proves this isn’t so. Here. See?”


            “We did, actually, and they were proven false.”



    • Ghiji

      Why would she “attack” an absolutely non-existent website to “promote” her game?

      The game is released for free. You can give a small incentive in money if you want, a part of which go to charity. But by all means, you can give 0 dollars to her and still play the game.

      On Steam, the game is even freer than that. There is no “pay what you want” system on Steam, you just install the game and play it.

      Wizardchan, you mean this small /r9k/ offshoot that’s about virgins? The one where if you held a girl’s hand you’re getting called a “normalfag”? The place that blames women for their issues a whole lot of times?

      • Madfoot713

        >Why would she “attack” an absolutely non-existent website to “promote” her game?

        Good question. Why did she?

        • David Streever

          Ghiji, this guy is seriously mentally disturbed, and thinks that an ‘epic’ campaign of harassment against a woman he has never met is somehow acceptable or going to get him invited to the nice parties.

          • Madfoot713

            Why is insulting me necessary?

          • David Streever

            I’m not insulting you; I’m describing the apparent state of mind. You are persecuting a woman you don’t know, after having yourself read her private correspondence, which is seriously inappropriate.

            You aren’t self-aware enough to see that you’re just venting a personal problem on the internet. Yes, you seem seriously disturbed. You absolutely don’t seem mentally healthy right now; you’re badgering and harassing a woman you never met via internet comments & troll reviews of her game.

          • Madfoot713

            We were discussing something that happened months ago and is completely separate with her issues from her ex. I would ask you again, please don’t call me names or insult me, you can discuss things with respect for the other party.

          • David Streever

            Look, I understand that the Wizard’s Guild is really important to you. I also think I understand that you aren’t the Archmage, right? You’re not the Head Wizard of the Guild?

            What do you care that she said, literally months ago, that members of your Tower of Magic harassed her? Has it had any actual negative repercussions for you?

            EVEN IF IT HAD, do you honestly think that your current conduct (because, admit it or not, you and your Wizarding Friends have certainly glommed on to the latest news) is doing you and the rest of the Sorcerers any favors?

            Do you really think that joining in on the public bashing of a woman you don’t know immediately after her ex (who you don’t know) accused her of cheating on him makes ANYONE who isn’t already a part of your Harry Potter’s Magical World of Wizardry want in?

            The behavior that you’re displaying, the complete denial of the situation, and your egotistic narcissistic delusion that anyone outside of you and your fellow Wizards cares FOR EVEN ONE SECOND what Zoe said about you is incredibly off-putting. I wouldn’t want to ride on the same bus with you. I’m actually disgusted by you, your behavior, and your argument. I find it disgusting.

            I guarantee you that 90% of people who aren’t on your Internet Wizard Club feel the same way. Guarantee. If you don’t believe me, leave your house, and go ask someone who isn’t interested in internet communities.

            Ask this, “So, a few months ago, this woman who is a game developer released a game. She says that people from this internet forum I belong to, Wizchan, harassed her with rude comments, phone calls, and emails.

            I don’t know for a fact if NO ONE in my forum did this, but I believe that no one did. So, my friends and I started posting negative reviews on her game, all the time, calling her a liar and saying she was mean and a bully.

            The game is free, by the way, but we just thought that no one should ever play it ever, because of the comments she made.

            So, recently, an ex of hers claimed that she cheated on him with 5 guys. Now, men all over the internet are calling her a slut, but I think my initial issue is still valid.

            I think she owes me a personal apology, and an apology to my internet forum (The Wacky World of Web Wizards), and then she should delete her game and stop developing games.

            Does that sound fair?”

            I would like to guarantee you that you will not find a single Muggle who says yes. Muggles don’t care about Wizard wars, OK? Move on, get over it, and stop whining.

          • Josh Wirtanen

            I think there was a lot of hate directed toward Wizard after the allegations came out, and that hate was probably misdirected.

            However, one of the big problems with Wizard’s current argument is that it goes like this: “I don’t think Wizard harassed Zoe, therefore she’s lying about being harassed.”

            When a rational argument would go like this: “I don’t think Wizard harassed Zoe. It’s not entirely illogical to assume that a person harassing someone would do so under a fake identity, and that person probably wanted to draw negative attention toward Wizard. So, what probably happened was that another person or group harassed Zoe and told her it was Wizard so that everyone will blame them for it.”

            That sucks, yes. But people are reacting by furthering this harassment, which is fucked up. Now you’ve got victims fighting victims.

            Zoe’s cheating was a shitty thing to do, but it has nothing to do with Wizard. So stop making it about Wizard.

            Secondly, Zoe’s cheating has nothing to do with journalism. She’s not a journalist. She slept with one who had mentioned her game in passing a long time ago. Conflict of interest? Possibly, but that’s an issue with Nathan Grayson and not Zoe. If you want to make this about journalism, learn the actual facts and leave Zoe out of it, because she’s not the villain in that particular story.

            This journalism thing is affecting the industry. I have information that suggests people are losing their jobs over this, and those people have absolutely no connection with Kotaku or Zoe Quinn.

            Thirdly, Zoe’s cheating has nothing to do with the quality of Depression Quest. I never played it, so I can’t comment on its quality. It might be the shittiest game ever made. But if that’s the case, then criticize the game by making actual arguments about the fucking game. Or criticize Greelight for being a popularity contest rather than a judge of quality. But no one ever made a rule that says “A game shall not be Greenlit if said game’s creator hath fornicated with multiple people while in a relationship with someone else.” So Zoe’s bad behavior shouldn’t have any impact on her game. Especially since it’s free.

            Fourth, maybe Zoe’s cheating is a reason you personally decide to not support her Patreon. That’s a valid decision, and you can make that decision without being a complete asshole about it. So maybe do that if you have a problem with her?

            All of the harassment she’s getting is only forcing people who can think rationally to defend her, even when they don’t exactly want to. So knock it off. If you truly want to see her fall, stop giving her so much attention. Your harassment is causing people to donate to her Patreon.

          • David Streever

            Oh, I don’t mind, I actually just took it as a (positive!) dialogue. I agree with you; the debate as stands is ridiculous.

            The most frustrating aspect, as someone who has no investment in this issue, is that a group of people who think they are ‘defending’ wizardchan are actually harassing and abusing Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn, and a number of other people, while chanting that their group would never do such a thing. The cognitive dissonance is amazing, and it makes me unlikely to believe that they are really innocent of initially harassing her and posting inappropriate reviews.

            The tweets they keep referencing show Zoe use the term ‘raid’ once and refer to 2 or 3 incidents of harassment. It’s like, how upset can WizardChan actually be over 3 tweets? Upset enough to launch a mass campaign of harassment, hack Phil Fish’s website, and use sexist slurs all over the internet? That doesn’t exactly scream ‘level-headed, healthy, non-harassing individuals’ to me.

            Furthermore, when you try to engage one of these angry people, they just deflect and evade.

            Criticize them for talking about Zoe and her ex, and no matter how many posts that person has made saying she is ‘disgusting’ and ‘abhorrent’ they say “No one is talking about that! This is about journalism.”

            Ask them why they aren’t criticizing the journalists, and what reviews actually appeared to be written about her game, and they say, “No one is saying that! This is about her being a bully!”

            Point out that she made 3 tweets and they’ve made probably 100,000 anonymous comments, tweets, etc, and they say, “It isn’t about that!”

            At the end of the day, when you point out how completely wrong any of their arguments are, they deny each and every argument they were just using minutes before, and ultimately settle in on an insult or an accusation of trolling.

          • Madfoot713

            She should apologize.

          • cloudstrife990

            He has to insult you, because he’s wrong. He can’t have an actual argument with you because he’s wrong. He wants to cast doubt on your mental state because he thinks that if you’re crazy then that disproves all the things you’re saying. No one is badgering and harassing a woman. This is a case of someone getting caught behaving inappropriately and now being treated in a way completely appropriate for what their behavior was. I’m sorry that you’re a massive white knight who will always defend any woman because you’re so desperate to touch one. Defending women on the internet doesn’t get you laid, I’m sorry. Defending any woman for any reason doesn’t make you a feminist, it just makes you an idiot. Sorry.

          • David Streever

            Cloudstife: I’m insulting him because he’s refusing to acknowledge reality, in the same way you are.

            Hundreds of people posting “HUR HUR BURGERS AND FRIES WUTTA SLUT” because an ex boyfriend posted private conversations for the entire internet to read *is* harassing and badgering.

            You say it’s what she deserves; I say it’s none of your business.

            I have yet to see a single argument for why it is any of your business what happened. WHO CARES? Why do you all care so much?

            The only reason that MadFool has given is because she thought his Archmage’s Guild had started it. SO WHAT? No one cares about the Wizarding World of the Web besides the Apprentice Magicians who frequent it.

            Calling an individual a slut, a whore, and a bitch thousands of times, from hundreds of anonymous individuals, is ABSOLUTELY WORSE than said individual saying that a bunch of anonymous Magicians in Training harassed her.

            EVEN IF NONE OF YOU DID ANYTHING, you certainly are NOW harassing her. Posting reviews of her game that say “HUR HUR WHAT A SLUT” is harassment.

            Harassment is not solely a legal state, despite your Komrades suggesting I’m accusing anyone of ‘criminal harassment’; Harassment, literally, is defined as “aggressive pressure or intimidation.”

            I’d say people demanding she remove her game from Interwebz while E-screaming that she’s a slut & a whore constitutes ‘harassment’.

            That’s what she said the Wonderful Wizard World was up to, and that is exactly what I’m seeing now.

            I do have a point, but your basic denial of sexism and your gleeful feelings of justification get in the way of you hearing it.

            This is a woman who has ACTUALLY DONE NOTHING to you at all, and you and your Magical Komrades are demanding that she basically resign from being involved in the web, game development, and any other facet of life that you care about.

            That’s not right, NO MATTER WHAT SHE DID, and you have NO RIGHT to even know about her private sexual life. She did not, in our legal system, commit any crimes as a result of behavior she MAY OR MAY NOT have conducted.

            This entire argument is ridiculous, and when you’re older, you’ll be really glad you conducted your side of it from behind an alias.

            If any of you actually had a point, or realized that your entire tirades on this weren’t completely obnoxiously ridiculous, at least one of you would use your real name.

            You are the problem with the internet. Yes, you. You are the argument against anonymity. In a real town square environment, you and your giggling guffawing Magical Buddies would refrain from saying a thing, and just go gossip behind her back, because that’s about the level of maturity you are capable of.

          • cloudstrife990

            I personally never called her a slut, or a whore or any of that. It’s pretty obvious that she’s got a bunch of issues, and I honestly hope she gets help for them. This isn’t about our “right to know about her private sexual life,” this is about the community being unforgiving of her abhorrent behavior. Just because sex has something to do with it, you want to make this about her sex life and personal privacy and all that jazz. This is a story about a person who took a group of depressed virgins and used them as a springboard to further her own career. If there’s one thing that is evident in all this, it is that this woman does not hesitate to do anything to further her career. You said that “She did not, in our legal system, commit any crimes as a result of behavior she MAY OR MAY NOT have conducted.” She directly caused a harassment campaign that was directed at a support group for depressed male virgins. She also tried her hardest to smear a group of people who were promoting females in the game industry for her own selfish goals. Throughout all of this, she has hidden behind the impression that she is a victim when in reality she is the one victimizing others. Her actions are morally reprehensible at best. People who want the gaming industry to be legitimate rail against all behavior like this, regardless of gender. You’re here trying to whiteknight a manipulative, predatory woman who has rallied to her cause many other people like you. Instead of looking at the facts and judging a situation, you’ve decided that this woman is being harassed and that’s that. In a real town square environment, i would be saying the exact same thing as I have been saying. This type of behavior from any person regardless of gender/race/etc. is deplorable and shouldn’t be tolerated. I’d like you to explain to me how emotional manipulation, engaging in a sexual relationship with a superior (and then threatening the superior’s wife) and using sex to further a career are things that should be condoned. Until now, all you’ve done is say that people have no business knowing about her and that everyone is harassing her without ever seeing any evidence (other than her saying so). Why do you think that even now her actions are acceptable? You said that my points about NSA spying/murder affected us all as a whole, so could you please explain how this type of behavior doesn’t affect humanity as a whole? You claim to want to engage in a reasonable discussion, but when the people you talk to are being reasonable you resort to personal attacks. Can you even justify any of your points of view, or are you just a shill for radical feminists?

          • David Streever

            Cloudstiff: You literally talked about her sexual relationship with her boss, while saying I’m trying to ‘turn it into that’. That is part of your issue with her, and it’s wrong. You have no business knowing that and it doesn’t concern you.

            I don’t take it on her word alone that she is being harassed. I take it on your word. I read the reviews, I read the comments you’re leaving here, and yes, she is being harassed. That is exactly what is happening.

            So she (perhaps mistakenly) thought the Wizard’s Guild was behind some nasty and sexist stuff posted about her. I have been seeing sexist stuff written about Zoe Quinn since FEBRUARY 2014. I neither know nor care who is behind it, but the Wizard Guild response has certainly not made me think they are above it.

            Yes, she has been harassed. When people call her a ‘filthy causal’ and make fun of her CYOA game and call her a ‘gaymer’ and say she has ‘no right’ to be a part of the ‘games community’ it is harassment.

            To top it off, the geniuses doing it are all anonymous, because they are cowards, and they know that actual harassment involves your real identity. That’s why you all are hiding your names; that’s the only reason. So you can do whatever you want and get away with it.

            I don’t know Zoe Quinn, but I do know sexism, and I’ve seen it hurled at women in games non-stop as long as I’ve been playing games.

            I’ve seen it on 4chan. I’ve seen it on reddit. Twitter. Facebook. Disqus. In games. Out of games. At a bar. You name it, I’ve heard it. I’ve heard men tell women they were going to rape them and kill them during games. I’ve seen men write it to women on twitter. It’s not exactly a surprise, and it’s not very rare. You could find dozens of examples without looking too hard.

            I don’t doubt Zoe at all that men made sexist comments and harassed her in February. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to believe; if you look at ANY woman in games you will see entire polemics against them.

            It’s this, or it’s that, but the reality is that no matter the reasons it is literally impossible to be a woman in games and NOT get subjected to sexist abuse. It happens every single day and you can read it here, in these comments, on Steam reviews, and on Twitter.

            Where are all the articles about her BOSS who slept with her? You do realize how this ACTUALLY works, right? Under the law, *he* is the bad guy, not her. As it should be. Bosses have additional responsibilities because they have additional power.

            You literally have no argument. At the end of the day, you are just another manifestation of sexism against women, providing another incoherent, rambling, wall-of-text argument that establishes nothing but your own deep-seated issues around women and sexuality.

          • cloudstrife990

            You’re trying to group the people who have legitimate points in with the normal scum of the internet under the blanket statement of “everyone’s harassing her.” If you can’t understand that there is a difference between the people who have legitimate reasons for condemning these actions and the people who are just calling her a “slut, filthy casual, gaymer, etc.” then talking to you is really a waste of time. Additionally, the fact that you’re saying you “don’t doubt Zoe at all that men made sexist comments and harassed her in February…” proves how out of touch you are in this situation when she’s already admitted that didn’t happen. The only thing Zoe Quinn provided as “evidence” of her “harassment” was someone calling her a c***t on a messageboard because they essentially believed that her depiction of living with depression was as out of touch as you are in this conversation. Do I think that someone probably shouldn’t say things like that on a messageboard? Yes. Do I think that someone saying something like that on a messageboard is “harassment?” Definitely not. The questions you should ask yourself are: Where is the evidence of this supposed harassment? Is there any evidence other than her claims, of which she later admitted were false? Why are you so worked up about this? Why can you not make a single argument without trying to insult the people you’re arguing with? You want to defend this person who has admittedly lied, cheated and manipulated numerous people that have come into close contact with her for her own selfish ends. Why? Why does this have to be an issue of gender? Why does she get a pass on her deplorable behavior because she’s a woman? Why should she be immune from scrutiny? Also, I would agree with you that usually a boss sleeping with an employee is the bad guy. However, when that employee goes on to threaten their boss’s wife it suddenly casts doubt on who the bad guy (or girl) really is. On a more personal note, I find your accusation that I’m a “manifestation of sexism against women” to be more than just ridiculous. It’s actually downright offensive. How is holding a person to the basic standard of human behavior sexist just because that person happens to be a woman? Just to give you some context here before you go into another wall of text about how I’m a sexist or whatever, I was originally supportive of Zoe Quinn. Once I actually started to look at what was going on, however, I quickly realized that she is actually in the wrong here. No matter what excuse you try to offer up, this kind of behavior cannot be tolerated from anyone. The fact that she is a woman is completely irrelevant, and I really wish you would see that.

          • cloudstrife990

            I forgot to put this in, but I could make a pretty good argument that you’re a sexist here. You’re trying to give her any excuse you can think of to explain her behavior but there is no excuse. There can be no double standard when it comes to equality. I’d even go so far as to say that women like Zoe Quinn actually hurt the cause of feminists, because all she’s doing is exploiting feminism to further her own goals.

          • David Streever

            That isn’t sexism, you twit. You have no idea what structural, or systemic, sexism is, so how could you possibly see yourself the way you appear to anyone who does understand what it is?

          • David Streever

            I wish YOU could see that it is ENTIRELY about her sex.

            Where are the polemics against the male boss? Why aren’t those all over the internet? Why aren’t terms like ‘cunt’ and ‘slut’ and ‘whore’ being used for him?

            You actually don’t understand this, and that’s OK, but stop pretending you do. You do not understand systemic sexism or even what it means. If you did, you wouldn’t think that this is OK.

            I actually DID see sexist comments about Zoe, in February, of this year. I actually saw them in DECEMBER of last year, when I reviewed her game on the IFDB.

            Yes, people were attacking her then. NO, I don’t have screenshots, but yes, I saw sexist, offensive comments about her. Reading the comments here, I don’t understand how that is hard to believe? but you have your bias, and you’ve been very open about it.

            As to lumping you in: you are joining in. Like it or not, you and the Archmages are trying to assassinate her character for a variety of reasons, and you all keep bringing up the same points. Yes, you are part of it, although I’m sure that you see yourself as a special snowflake individual grain of sand.

            You aren’t. You’re just one of many misogynists dictating acceptable behavior to women while remaining oddly quiet on the conduct of men.

          • cloudstrife990

            Who remains oddly quiet on the conduct of men? Her boss is just as reprehensible as she is in this. What you fail to show in any post you’ve made is the link between comments made by scummy trolls on the internet and the alleged harassment campaign. I don’t care who you are, when someone victimizes a group of severely depressed people for personal gain it’s absolutely disgusting. I’m not saying there aren’t sexists in the world. I’m not saying that there weren’t any sexist comments made about her. What I am saying is that she doesn’t get a pass for victimizing what is essentially an anonymous depression support group to further her career. I’m not saying that women aren’t harassed on the internet. On a side note though, almost every woman I’ve ever played a game with has been harassed almost exclusively by the other women in whatever game it was. Just to give you some clarity, the kind of people who say those disgusting things you were referring to don’t just target women. They’re internet trolls, they make disgusting comments about whatever crosses their path. They’re the kind of people who make ridiculous comments about Robin Williams’ suicide or the shooting of Michael Brown. You can keep trying to make this about gender, but this isn’t about gender. What I’m saying is not about gender, it’s about common decency. I feel like I have to reiterate this because I can’t say it enough: any harassment she ACTUALLY received is completely unforgivable. However, there is a difference between whatever actual harassment occurred and the harassment that was claimed to have occurred. I don’t know how else I can say it. If you’re going to keep responding to me, please at least answer some of the questions I’ve asked you rather than responding with feminist nonsense.

          • David Streever

            Feminism isn’t nonsense; feminism, literally, is a movement dedicated to equality between men and women.

            You’re ignorant, so you don’t know this, which is why you’re saying what you are saying. That’s OK. I do hope you choose to educate yourself on this topic, but no one can make you; that’s what we call male privilege. You get to be ignorant about sexism, and feminism, and it will literally never hurt you in a monetary way.

            So, a forum where anonymous internet trolls write horrible things (we both admit that this happens, and it happens on WizardChan) ABSOLUTELY DID NOT make a single harassing comment about Zoe? Did you know, one of the Magicians from Wizard’s Guild, as the top post on this comments section, says that there were comments about Zoe, but alleges that Zoe wrote them?

            So, some of the Wizards admit that there were sexist comments about her, but they claim that she wrote them.

            Other Wizards deny that the comments were ever written at all, and say they were entirely made up, and the Wizards were ‘harassed’ by two or three tweets that Zoe made about her harassment.

            Look. Buddy.

            I WANT to believe you, but nothing you’re writing is very compelling. You have zero evidence, whereas I saw–with my own eyes–sexist comments about Zoe last year. I see, right now, sexist comments about Zoe from self-described Mages and Sorcerers.

            I don’t know what to tell you. It’s pretty obvious to me that your community doesn’t want to believe what all us Muggles believe, which is that there were misogynistic comments made about her, she complained over twitter (how dare she) and the Magical Wizards came out in force.

            Like I’ve said (repeatedly) you aren’t doing yourself any favors here. You’re displaying ignorance about sexism, and being openly misogynistic, while denying it, while simultaneously saying that the Wizards of Waverly Place never said anything sexist.

            You don’t even know what sexism is. You literally do not know what it is. You literally do not know what feminism is. How the heck can I possibly take anything you are saying for truth? You are so ill-educated that you are spouting sexist rhetoric while telling me you aren’t being a sexist.

          • cloudstrife990

            Sorry, let me clarify. instead of “please at least answer some of the questions I’ve asked you rather than responding with feminist nonsense.” should be “please at least answer some of the questions I’ve asked you rather than responding with RADICAL feminist nonsense.” I don’t think that feminism is nonsense, I view gender equality as a matter of common sense. As in “anyone with common sense knows that men and women are equal.” I’m not saying that no one on wizardchan ever wrote anything bad about Zoe Quinn. The point is, wizardchan is an anonymous support group for depressed male virgins. I think we can both agree that having an anonymous support group where everything being said is able to be viewed by anyone seems kind of silly…but that’s beside the point. I don’t really find it hard to believe that a group of depressed male virgins think that a woman talking about living with depression is complete bullshit. In this country they have the right to have an opinion, even if it is sexist. Additionally, they can say whatever they want on an anonymous messageboard. That’s kind of the whole point of anonymous support groups. Zoe Quinn didn’t say that she was being harassed because she found these posts on the internet. She claimed that this website “raided” her. She claimed that there were threatening phone calls, emails, etc. but never showed any evidence to support the harassment claims. She claimed that they “doxxed” her, or made public her personal information. (address, name, phone number…) According to the chat logs that were provided by her ex, she admits to lying about the alleged “doxx”-ing. I want you to explain to me how some rude comments on an anonymous messageboard are “harassment.” You’ve been insulting half the people in these comments, are you harassing them? You’ve insulted me quite a few times as well as anyone else you deem to be “misogynistic” or “sexist.” Please tell me how someone’s personal opinion of a game developer who is in the public eye amounts to harassment.

          • David Streever

            Dictionary of CloudStrife:

            ‘Radical feminists’ = People who disagree with you on how appropriate it is to publicly attack a woman you don’t know based on two or three tweets she made months ago, in the midst of a pretty massive criticism of her by thousands of trolls, based on the private correspondence her ex leaked to the internet.

            ‘White Knights’ = Men who see thousands of trolls saying disgusting, sexualized insults towards a woman who they do not know and say “Enough! What is wrong with you people? Do you not have anything better to do?”

            ‘Actual harassment’ = Zoe Quinn saying “oh great, WizChan is harassing me” on two occasions, which could have been an honest mistake. ‘Actual harassment’ does not include the thousands of trolls you admit are saying awful things. That’s OK! That’s ‘the internet’.

            ‘Male privilege’ = Definitely not the fact that thousands of trolls are saying awful things about a woman, and trying to ruin her career, based on details from her private life they have no business knowing.

            ‘Conspiracy’ = The entire world of games journalism defending Quinn because, guess what, it is being performed by adults with degrees who actually have a clue what structural sexism is, who see how sexist, POINTLESS, hyperbolic, and completely vitriolic the attacks on Quinn are.

            ‘Arguments’ = Allusions to points that you can drop like a hot cake when they are successfully refuted. Preferably buried in a giant wall-of-text with neither paragraph breaks nor intelligent construction of sentences.

          • cloudstrife990

            You’re one of those people who thinks you’re smarter than everyone, aren’t you?

          • David Streever

            You’re one of those people who project on others & construct psych profiles of strangers, aren’t you?

            I don’t think that, but I do know that your arguments on this are weak, and instead of presenting them even one time outside of a wall-of-text of unrelated complaints and gripes, you’ve failed to list them in a coherent sentence.

          • David Streever

            “What you fail to show in any post you’ve made is the link between comments made by scummy trolls on the internet and the alleged harassment campaign. I don’t care who you are, when someone victimizes a group of severely depressed people for personal gain it’s absolutely disgusting. ”

            This is my big issue with you wizards. Instead of entertaining the notion that she may have just been responding to harassment, and DID NOT REALIZE that it wasn’t coming from Wizard’s World, you’ve constructed this elaborate psychological construct of her that you can rally against and pillory in public.

            You have no idea what her motivation was. You assume it was for personal gain, but you don’t actually know.

            So why the vitriol? Why the entitlement? Why the certainty? You don’t know, so you’ve demanded that she resolve all your issues and problems. It’s pathetic.

          • cloudstrife990

            Okay so, first off you’re doing that whole lumping thing again. I’ve been to wizardchan maybe twice, and it was after I read the initial article about the supposed harassment of Zoe Quinn. I went there expecting to find a bunch of misogyny and sexism, but what I found was a group of people with depression. It’s not really an “elaborate psychological construct,” because as far as the evidence that has actually been provided Zoe Quinn does seem like a person who is in need of serious help. In fact, I’d say that assuming her actions were for personal gain is giving her the benefit of the doubt. If we look at just the things she’s admitted to, she’s at the very least a manipulator and a liar. You want to know why there is “vitriol?” Because her actions have demonstrated that she does not care who she hurts. Or, at the very least she isn’t even aware of the fact that what she’s doing is hurting people. I’m not sure which one is worse, but they’re both pretty shitty. I don’t know what you’re referring to with the “entitlement” and “certainty” comments, but I don’t demand anything from Zoe Quinn. If I could speak with her right this second, I’d say to her that as someone who used to unintentionally hurt other people constantly that she should seek help because that kind of behavior just leads to being alone. I don’t know what “issues and problems” you’re referring to, either. I don’t think I’ve said “Zoe Quinn needs to do X for me” or anything even close to that. The only thing that is pathetic here is that you’re constantly trying to twist everything everyone says to suit the RADICAL feminist nonsense you’re spouting. If you were anything other than a RADICAL feminist you wouldn’t be so hung up on all these issues concerning gender. I don’t know anything for certain, really. What I do know is that the evidence provided paints a very negative portrait of the effect Zoe Quinn has on other people. All you’ve done in every comment is try to paint a scenario where Zoe Quinn is the victim. I don’t care if she was responding to legitimate harassment or not, causing a massive harassment campaign against people who have nothing to do with it is unacceptable. Her actions are unacceptable no matter how you try to excuse them.

          • David Streever

            Did she deliberately cause a massive harassment campaign? Is she actually culpable for the 3rd party actions of people she does not know, which she did not instruct them to do?

            How do you figure that? Why don’t you blame the people who harassed the mages?

            Also, your definition of radical feminism is ridiculous. I actually don’t even call it feminism; I just think, when a person is being publicly taken to town and whipped on the green, it’s appropriate to shut up about an incredibly petty complaint.

            You keep saying I’m twisting everything, but the thing is, I just don’t see any valid arguments here at all.

            Some people were mean to the Sorcerers online, possibly because Quinn was potentially mistaken about who was writing abusive nonsense about her. That means that thousands of boys on the internet have to freak out, trawl through her personal life, and post mean words about her. That’s your point. That’s what this comes down to.

            It’s stupid, counter-productive, and one of the most petty debates I can imagine. Just let it go. There is no meaningful harm coming to anyone out of this except the backlash which you and the Wizards are inviting by continuing to berate a woman over her life and a possible mistake she made about who harassed her.

          • David Streever

            Sorry, two more clarifications

            1. I don’t need ‘EVIDENCE’; I ACTUALLY SAW IT. I literally read it on the internet. I literally read harassment against her, sexualised insults, LAST YEAR. I don’t need evidence.

            2. I’m not TRYING to insult you and your Comrades in Magic. I LITERALLY CAN NOT HELP IT. Your debate style (to bring up a point and then deny that you made that point when it is refuted) is not valid, and there is no polite response to it.

            What can I say, except you’re being needlessly obtuse, as you dance around your own personal damage and assign it to a woman you DO NOT KNOW on the internet?

            What else can I say, as you badger, harass, and defame a woman YOU DO NOT KNOW based on gossip by her EX BOYFRIEND who you DO NOT KNOW?

            Have any of your friends or family members EVER cheated? Did you go on an extended smear campaign against them, calling everyone, posting about it, etc?

            I guarantee you did not.

            Why does this bother me? Why does it make me passionate?

            Because I’m a human being, and a man, who sees sexism routinely deployed against women, from condescending put-downs to just over-talking them in a room. I read the inane BS you and your Magical Alliance are sharing online (I finally went and checked out Wizard’s Guild–disgusting. Try doing a search for ‘slut’ on it and tell me that you don’t get a lot of misogynistic results) and you know what?

            It demonstrates, more than ever, that you and your buddies are pursuing a sexist and insane vendetta against a woman.

            Just stop. Who do you think you’re helping? NO ONE. You are literally not helping a single person. You are taking a mis-guided idea of an individual you don’t know, and trying to make it her permanent life. Sure, she did some bad things. I bet everyone you know has done bad things at some point!

            Should those things define them FOREVER? Should those things mean that 100,000 screaming anonymous people should haunt, badger, harass, and hassle them?

            No! Be honest with yourself for a moment, look at your own life, and think if there isn’t anything you’ve done that you are ashamed of or that you’d be ashamed of if someone else knew.

            What is your defense of the hacking of Phil Fish’s site? Why was that appropriate? Because he said something you didn’t like on Twitter?

            Just stop. It’s not right, and I sincerely hope you some day gain enough perspective to look back on this with shame and guilt.

          • Jonnystheboss

            By having media rally around how Zoe was “victim” of abuse from this web site that had no contact with her whatsoever she gained considerable attention. All without having to provide any evidence or even really be consistent in her accusation.
            The game is free. But all this exposure and online presence gets her paid. Patreon, is just one example. Where she receives recurring monthly donations for nothing. As support.

            David, I would love to know your qualifications that allow you to deem someone “seriously mentally disturbed” and toss around comments about imagined parties. The only basis you have for assumption would be a relative analysis. And by your applied standard, every single person with an argument here is “seriously mentally disturbed.” As it sounds a little ridiculous, I think it’s far more likely to assume that you’re currently being a dick, and off-topic.

            This is one of those situations where the excuses refuting all this information provided are more of a stretch, and “conspiracy,” than simply taking things at face value.

          • David Streever

            Jonny, yes, you all are disturbed.

            So what if people give her $ via Patreon? that is their choice.

            Do you not see the insane level of entitlement in your statement?

            You have *no argument*; that’s the issue here. “LOOK AT THIS WOMAN…. who had SEX with MEN…. who is getting MONEY OVER THE INTERNET!”

            The money isn’t government assistance; it’s private individuals donating. Why does that bother you? Get over it.

          • Jonnystheboss

            The money she received there is largely from support through media based on a completely manufactured claim and sensationalist clickbait “reporting.” I’m not talking rocket science here. If you can’t understand how that may perturb individuals then there is little help for you in this discussion. Can you give a base argument explaining how this is acceptable?
            The sex is less relevant than the insight into the actual quality of her character. Something that The Fine Young Capitalists are now familiar with. She even shit all over a venture meant to support women.
            You seem perfectly happy to attempt to use an imagined invasion of privacy to attempt to insult anyone whom may have an argument. You’re easily going to become redundant, here. Try to keep up.
            Oh, and the fact that you didn’t catch that my statement was wholly inclusive, thus making you mentally disturbed by association… the humor is not lost on me. I’m glad you agree it’s absurd.

          • David Streever
          • Jonnystheboss

            Trolling; when you’ve been talked under the table.
            You no longer have anything to contribute apparently. Maybe I’ll just ride over to your other comments and point out your flawed logic and how you continue to repeat yourself.
            I find it sad if only because your other comments, that don’t relate to this issue, appear to be well-thought and said, for the most part.

          • David Streever

            No, I’m not trolling. I believe what I’m saying. If she wants to go freakin’, sellin’ on the weekends, it is none of your business.

            It isn’t. The song describes what you’re doing; moralizing and criticizing women for their sexual lives.

            In this case, you don’t even know the woman.

            It truly is none of your business.

            Can you point to any financial losses you have suffered as a result of Quinn’s actions? Personal damages of any kind? No? OK. Who did you wrong? How is this not just you venting your own damage?

          • cloudstrife990

            Are you one of those people who think the NSA indiscriminately spying on american citizens is okay? We shouldn’t have ever found out about it, so it wasn’t our business, right? Murderers must be fine too, even if we find out they murdered someone it’s not our business. Your logic is terrible, you’re wrong, and you’re done. Move on.

          • David Streever

            Are you projecting much? You literally don’t have an argument.

            I challenged you to provide the ‘biased’ reviews and you didn’t instead, engaging in a strange strawman where you suggest I don’t care about murder, as if that was a logical next step from a young woman having sex with someone other than her boyfriend.

            1. NSA spying on citizens affects all of us, potentially, and could be argued to violate the legal rights we have. Of course it bothers me, you nitwit.
            2. Murder is against the law, and involves *ending the life of another*. Of course I care about murder.

            The last I checked, having sex with people outside of your relationship *is not illegal*, and not a *violation of the basic human rights of anyone*.

            You do not have a Constitutional or internationally recognized right to have exclusive sex with a woman.

            Her sex life is simply not your business, and it has *in no way whatsoever* had any impact on you at all, besides the large amount of time you are choosing to waste on this.

          • Madfoot713

            Other things that are none of your business:

            * Paula Deen calling someone a nigger in 1987
            * Brendan Eich donating money to Prop 8 in 2008
            * Anthony Cumia complaining about being assaulted by a black woman

            Yet no one had a problem with criticizing these people’s behavior or losing their jobs. “Shining a light on abusive behavior in the community” or whatever seems to be something people generally support, unless you’re friends with the person getting criticized.

          • David Streever

            Do you actually have *real* evidence of Zoe Quinn doing something abusive to an individual?

            Paula Deen *breaking the law* to use racial slurs around her employees, thus creating a hostile work environment, is very different from you disagreeing with Zoe Quinn’s definition of sexual harassment.

            As Zoe Quinn is a woman, and I am not, I defer to her (and all women) in their authority as women on what defines harassment of women.

            Why do you have a problem with this? There are tons of negative reviews, most of which do focus on her sexual behavior, live on Steam right now. Some of them go back for months.

            In what way have you been abused? Has someone published your sexual history, and started calling you ‘5 guys burger and fries’ in public forums?

            You’re really incredibly sensitive and reactionary if you think that a woman complaining about men calling her, while masturbating, and harassing her with rape comments is IN ANY WAY akin to the things being done to that woman.

          • Madfoot713

            Yes, there is evidence for Zoe harassing Wizardchan and TFYC, and @Ouren and Chloe also came forward to accuse her of abusive behavior, but were bullyied into silence. (Bullying people who come forward goes against what you people claim to believe in)

            >As Zoe Quinn is a woman, and I am not, I defer to her (and all women) in their authority as women on what defines harassment of women.

            That’s ridiculous.

            >You’re really incredibly sensitive and reactionary if you think that a
            woman complaining about men calling her, while masturbating

            1. There is absolutely no evidence that she got harassing phone calls.

            2. A lot of Wizardchan anons have too much anxiety to talk to their own family on the phone, let alone call a complete stranger.

            3. Her recently leaked phone numbers all redirect to gas stations, even though she claimed someone called her dad shortly after. This to me makes it likely that she lied about harassing phone calls six months ago, instead of merely a miscommunication or she pointed fingers at the wrong people.

            I don’t get how you can defend this. If you make a game to “raise awareness for depression” or whatever, but then you torment a bunch of depressed people to promote your game, that is horrifyingly cruel behavior, and you deserve to be criticized for it. It’s not a private thing.

          • David Streever

            ? Why does there have to be evidence that she got harassing phone calls?

            The behavior of you and your friends, who are upset that she said some people from your website harassed her, absolutely proves that IT IS LIKELY that it happened. You and your friends are absolutely harassing her now.

            Is that the ‘two wrongs make a right’ argument?

            And, lastly, why is it ridiculous that women, who experience sexual discrimination and harassment, are the authorities? I’m sorry, do you honestly believe that a white male knows more and better about sexual discrimination against women THAN WOMEN DO?

            You, on your own, absolutely stand as an argument in support of Zoe’s original statements.

          • Madfoot713

            >? Why does there have to be evidence that she got harassing phone calls?

            If you’re going to write an article about it, shouldn’t it be your duty to *investigate* it, before you demonize possibly innocent, and extremely vulnerable people?

          • David Streever

            Does your entire issue boil down to,

            “zoe said that the group of nerds I talk to online was mean to her but it wasn’t us I don’t know for a fact if she did or did not receive harassing phone calls but I am positive it wasn’t the group of nerds I talk to online, so, her being hacked, Phil Fish being hacked, people calling her a slut & a whore, people venting angrily about her months later all because she MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG about which group of nerds harassed her is all justified. It’s totally OK that people are calling her a whore and leaving reviews on her game which read ‘I love five guys burgers and fries’.”

            Is that seriously your argument?

          • Madfoot713

            You know what my argument is. Instead of rewriting my posts, shut up and read.

          • christiania

            Why does there have to be evidence that she got harassing phone

            Dude, I just received a call from you asking me what I’m wearing and if it would be all right with me if you sent me clipping of your pubes by express mail so I can glue them into a dildo that I’ll have to shove up your ass when you next visit me at my residence. I don’t have any proof, but that’s okay, after all, why does there have to be evidence that you called me?

            > The behavior of you and your friends, who are upset that she said some people from your website harassed her, absolutely proves that IT IS LIKELY that it happened.

            Wait, stop the presses. Are you saying that somebody complaining about a third party making fatuous accusations against a community you belong to proves that whatever the accusations are about actually happened?

            Were you hit in the face with a shovel swung by Bas Rutten when you were young? That’s about the only event that can explain your cognitive dissonance right now. Again, what happened to innocent until proven guilty? That’s not good enough for Wizchan? Is it that they are too pathetic to you to deserve reasonable doubt in light of the facts? Some SJW you are, ignoring the second most basic and obvious human right just after the right to life while complaining about the obfuscation of someone’s right to privacy who decided it would be a good idea to leave a trace of her misdoings on the Internet. Not that the ex-bf isn’t a shitbag for doing so but now that the information’s there, apparently we are to just ignore it.

            > And, lastly, why is it ridiculous that women, who experience sexual discrimination and harassment, are the authorities? I’m sorry, do you honestly believe that a white male knows more and better about sexual discrimination against women THAN WOMEN DO?

            Because that’s a prime example of argumentum ab auctoritate, you troglodyte. Being a woman doesn’t automatically make you an expert on sexual discrimination. Incidentally, discrimination by definition is based on facts and anyone with a mind to study the phenomenon factually can gain a great deal of expertise on the subject, whether they are male or female, so sweeping away a male’s perspective on the subject because he’s a male shows a misunderstanding at best of how rhetoric actually works, which is, you know, pretty primordial when you try to argue with strangers on the Internet.

          • David Streever

            When you idiots write this stuff, do you even think about the actual sexual harassment being conducted? I’ve read it, in forms and in reviews, and not on ‘news’ sites. I’m reading it in these comments.


            Yes, the people writing that shit absolutely do kind of suggest that Quinn isn’t inventing this. Because I literally can read a dozen such comments, without any hard work on my part, I do not believe you, Madfoot, or any of the other sexist idiots on this site saying it’s not happening and that Quinn deserves anything that is happening.

            What do I know? Maybe the whole thing is a huge elaborate hoax. Maybe they faked the hacking of Phil Fish’s site. I don’t know, but it all looks pretty real to me.

          • David Streever

            and, innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept in terms of sentencing someone to punishment, not to having opinions about them, you twit. My opinion on all of you is remarkably low, and it’s entirely based on the sexist and offensive comments I’ve read here.

          • christiania

            You are accusing Wizchan (and many others) of criminal harassment, you half-aborted nitwit. Not only accusing them, but stringing them up on a tree in a jilly big lynching of perceived undesirables. There’s nothing opinionated about that, it’s based on _factual information_. If you are going to accuse somebody of a criminal wrongdoing, in a court or not, you better be damn sure that your accusations hold. Else, it’s just a cesspool of bullshit.

            Not only that, but for someone huffing and puffing about the distinction between legal and moral rights as you’ve done in other posts, claiming we’re all abominable human beings for daring to judge somebody on her deeds, you do not seem to realize that the advent of human rights was the very first step towards introducing natural law into the judicial system, breaking down on the constitutional level the distinction between legal positivism and morality. In other words, legal rights _come_ from moral rights, so the presumption of innocence is as much a moral right as it is a legal one. It should be use not only in court, but as a nice little guideline to direct you with your dealings with others, that is, if you care so much about morality. It’s called being _fair_, you cretinous dwarf. As much as you claim people don’t have the moral right to be Internet bullies, you do not have the moral right to withdraw from this burden of proof when accusing people of crimes, be that in a court or not.

            Please sell your computer and never post anything on the Internet again if you’re incapable of arguing decently.

          • David Streever

            Why would I assume that you and the other Mages are innocent? I can read the sexism in this very thread, where you all keep saying it’s your god-given right to criticize Zoe Quinn’s sexual history based on things her ex-boyfriend said about her on the internet.

            Then, when I bring that up, Magister MadFool, Grand Wizard of Internet, tells me that none of you care about that and you aren’t talking about it. BUT THEN YOU BRING IT UP AGAIN?

            You and your wizard buddies aren’t innocent, so why would I presume you innocent? I can read, right here, your incredibly inappropriate and mis-guided sexualized insults and critiques of a woman you do not know who made the mistake of stating that some people from your Wizards Guild called her while wanking.

            Maybe she was right, maybe she was wrong, when I read the stupid stuff you all are saying AS A DEFENSE? of your Guild of Archmages, I seriously doubt she was wrong. You are not doing a good job of showcasing your community of Magical Magicians in a good light.

          • christiania

            Why do you keep assuming I’m one of them? I’m not. The same way you assume a whole community is guilty. They aren’t. That doesn’t stop you from assuming, though. Assuming is bad. You seem to be prone to it though, which is bad intellectual practice.

            You are the only one conflating Wizchan with events that go way out of its domain.

            Quote me one instance where I have made anything more than a completely reasonable judgment based on _her own actions_. She cheated on her ex with 5 dudes, and we have proof, after telling him that would be tantamount to raping him. Pray tell me how anything I have said in this light wasn’t totally, factually justified. By definition, people cheating on other people and then hiding it from them are, and I quote myself, “conniving,
            manipulative two-faced idiot[s]”. The act of infidelity and hiding it from a SO requires planning, it requires manipulation and it requires being a hypocrite. I have not called her a slut nor have I made any sexualized insult or comment towards her _at all_. I have called her indirectly a cheating bitch once, that’s the farthest I have ever gone in this thread and it isn’t even a sexualized insult.

            Bitch : “a malicious, unpleasant, selfish person, especially a woman.” The definition I had in my mind while using it. What’s so sexual about that?

            Then you claim I’m not innocent. Obviously I am, since I have made no sexualized insult whatsoever. It just goes to show at which point your cognitive dissonance runs deep but also the futility of even arguing with you, because your own judgment of anybody who even disagrees with you is set in stone, even if it is completely warped and twisted. Basically, you are everything you decry others to be.

            I guess it is true what Encyclopedia Dramatica says about white knights. What a surprise!

          • David Streever


            What part of suggesting a woman is a ‘cheating bitch’ avoids sex in the insult?

            What part of her sexual past is your business? Why did you read her boyfriends blog in the first place?

            Seriously, why is it your business? You keep saying you have a point I’m ignoring, but you simply aren’t making a point. You take it for granted that it is your right to know her private sex life and hound her in a public forum for it.


          • christiania

            BREAKING NEWS : SJW cannot distinguish an issue from a completely unrelated issue! More at 11.

            We’re only saying Wizchan _had nothing to do with this_, which it didn’t and you’d know this if you knew about 4chan politics. I know perfectly well other wastes of space go around and fuck with her. I have not talked about the particular issue of harassment in any other light. It’s not my fault you’re illiterate.

          • David Streever

            Christiania, you delightful dear, did you read the entire thread you responded to before screaming your vitriolic and ill-considered defense of how reasonable and non-sexist WizardWorld blogs sites is?

            Sure, I buy that the Head Wizard at Wizards World of Wonders didn’t coordinate the harassment against her, but, one of your members (maybe a junior apprentice?) has written sexually harassing things on this very site, so while the Great Wizard of WizardWorld didn’t send a magical command to MAdFool beckoning MadFool to action, MadFool certainly has posted harassing and sexually insulting messages here.

            Do you realize that no one else on the internet, except you and your Wizard buds, cares if the Grand Poobah of Wizard Town ordered actions against Zoe? The rest of us just see a bunch of Wizardors spewing vitriol and think, “Dear God these people are jerks.”

          • David Streever

            Also I do not know nor do I care what SJW means, but, for my purposes, it now mean “Supreme Jazz Wizard”.

          • christiania

            I am not a member of Wizchan, first of all. I do get laid. Also, nobody claims anybody directed anyone on Wizchan to attack Quinn. Are you sure you have even a high school diploma? I dunno about America, but back in my country, this level of reading comprehension would earn you a single way ticket back to 4th grade to learn important reading skills you obviously do not know how to apply.

            Second of all, please point directly to me what Madfoot has written that you consider “sexual harassment” so I can stick it up your ass, because if what I’ve seen to date about your definition of “harassment” holds, you are way out of left field, as per usual.

            Third of all…

            > The
            rest of us just see a bunch of Wizardors spewing vitriol and think,
            “Dear God these people are jerks.”

            …sums up exactly what is wrong with you and your line of reasoning. You don’t think about it, your whole line of thinking is a combination of a knee-jerk reaction without caring about the underlying issue and the bullshit Quinn shoveled right down your throat that you’re regurgitating right back at us. One does not attempt to communicate with anyone else under this mode of thinking.

            I’ve written amply on the other issues at hand, namely re privacy, claims of calls and emails, the appearance of bias being important and last but not least, the ability of people to judge despicable cheating bitches based on factual and public info. Why don’t you try to engage me on that instead of rambling semi-incoherently on issues you know nothing about?

            Is it because you’re scared I’m going to ridicule you, because you know you’re wrong, because you’re a (I’ll admit) decent troll, all, none of the above?

          • David Streever

            I’m simple-minded and just accept nonsense from Quinn, but I just can’t see the amazing intellect and pearls of wisdom you’re sharing with me!

            I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings by assuming you were a Magician or Wizard. If you prefer a title like Sorcerer, I can use that, too.

            I’m not sure how your sexual prowess is relevant. Do Wizards take vows of chastity, or is this just something you open all of your conversations with?

            “Hello, I’m Christiania. I get laid.”?

            Finally, no, I’m not trolling. The stuff I’m seeing written here is offensive and stupid. I don’t understand your point because you aren’t making one. How about you express your terribly misguided point in 2 sentences or less, not a wall of text, and let me judge from there?

          • christiania

            My God you’re dumb. “Victims” don’t decide what constitutes harassment. The law does.

            What happened to innocent before proven guilty?

            Is there any proof anybody called her, emailed her, hacked her accounts? No there isn’t. The funniest part is that all the evidence points to the contrary.

            Her dox were fake. How does one get in contact with another person with fake dox? Oh noes her shit was hacked by /v/, funny how she mysteriously regained control of her accounts 2 minutes after the deal. And what about the singular event that started most of this shit cavalcade, three mean posts on a 4chan subforum geared towards suicidally depressed males? It was a false flag sponsored by a particularly shit-eating division whose lives revolve around the stalking of a mentally deficient 30-something. There’s ample proof towards that interpretation. Yet people have been going around telling _a whole community of depressed people at risk of suicide_ to eat a bag of dicks and choke on it and that’s all right because apparently they are beta male oppressors of women who couldn’t get laid even if they paid for it. Did you see Zoe Quinn, the great defender of people suffering from depression all over, supposedly being a sufferer herself, try to put any brake on her white knights’ relentless and disgusting attacks on a bunch of people who literally had nothing to do with what was happening and were simply being scapegoated? No. Nobody did, because she didn’t.

            And what about the shitty things she’s done? Screwed over a game jam organized for women with great ideas that was going to be very successful simply because she was organizing a game jam herself whilst claiming _their_ jam was oppressive and demeaning to women, going so far as to dox the organizers? And yes, going to bed with a member of the games journalism industry was a shitty thing to do, both for her and the journalist. Infidelity had nothing to do with it. Had she been single or male it would have been an equally shitty thing to do. Is it okay if a college girl gives her professor a sloppy tit wank under the desk and lets him cum in her mouth afterwards if he doesn’t give her a good grade for it? Of course fucking not, you deluded moron. It gives the appearance of bias even if nothing ended up happening. Don’t you know the maxim “nemo judex in sua causa”? And where there is even just an appearance of bias, the community has every right there is under the sun to discuss it, because it’s shit like that that causes the industry to be thrown into disrepute, no matter if that appearance arises from circumstances that might be personal otherwise.

            And yeah, about these personal circumstances, one has to be an ultra-individualistic twit who’s read Atlas Shrugged one too many times before one’s brain shriveled into oblivion to claim that someone who’s told her ex-bf that if someone cheats on their SO then has sex with them afterwards is basically raping that SO because the consent is obtained under false pretenses (a position I actually find reasonable even in its extremism) then turned around and did THAT EXACT SAME THING is not to be submitted to the judgment of his/her peers. Everyone sensible knows not to talk about this shit over the Internet because then you can’t control where the data is stored or goes. We’re not talking about empty, angst-fuelled claims here, the guy posted Internet chat logs. If she didn’t want her private life as a _public person_ paraded on the four corners of the Internet, then the only thing she had to do is not to bring that personal life on the Internet. Like it or not, what one does in his/her private life is a good indication of what that person really is at his/her core. It’s not like we purposefully invaded her privacy looking for dirt, instead, the dirty laundry aired its way to us and we are 100% in the right to judge her based on that. She five guys’d her ex even when she had taken such a strong stance towards infidelity when he first met her. That’s called being a conniving, manipulative two-faced idiot, and the nature of society is such that we can and do call her on that. It stains her credibility and integrity as a public person in an industry that doesn’t need more hypocrites. One can readily compare the situation to Bill Clinton’s. Was society wrong to have crucified him for receiving a sloppy blow job from some random intern? Even if it didn’t detract from the accomplishments of the man, his work ethic or quality of the work done, society was right to have done so, because when you’re a public person, it’s not good enough to be professional and have integrity, you have to look the part too, the same way justice has to be done and to be seen being done.

            Now go back to your hole.

          • David Streever

            Is it cool if I don’t bother to respond to this stupid wall of text with anything substantial?

          • Jonnystheboss

            “The song describes what you’re doing; moralizing and criticizing women for their sexual lives.”
            That, is amusing. Not only are you completely fabricating things in this discussion, you’re attempting to toss around inclusive statements (women).

            I’m concerned that I need to point out your straw man argument. Waving your arms and talking about invasion of privacy and someone’s sex life. The one actually calling the most attention to it, between us, would be yourself. You’re also personally attacking people by implying or flat out saying they have mental issues. It really seems you’re out of your depth on this one.

            It doesn’t matter if you say something with conviction, that you believe it. There’s no merit there. Not when you blindly ignore civil discourse and logic.

            Now, have I personally been harmed by Zoe Quinn and her actions?
            That’s a silly question. And you’ve done nothing but display textbook examples of argument from fallacy and straw man (seriously, I will use these as educational reference). What you are basically implying here is that as a society we have no moral right to be upset about any happenings unless we can trace direct consequence to ourselves on a personal level. By your supposition, all politics are irrelevant. That is, of course, unless a politician came to your home and demanded your money as a tax. Nevermind they may be involved in, and ruining, areas of interest that also affect your day-to-day life. Do you want to explain to people like The Fine Young Capitalists how they have no right to be upset? Are you even familiar with what has actually happened? Because, right now, you’re basically throwing your soapbox on top of a refuse pile and seemingly baffled that we expect anything more than I per

          • David Streever

            Educational reference? You’re joking, right? Are you trying to imply you teach someone, anyone, anything in a professional capacity?

            In terms of poor arguments, please, look at how you’ve created a bizarre and illogical extension of my argument.

            It is none of your business who a woman has sex with does not mean it is none of your business how a politician votes on issues. Why would you even suggest that? That’s completely incorrect, and no sensible person reading anything written above would think for a second that I think that.

            Your expressions of protest at my noting that you and your friends seem unhinged is also unconvincing. You do seem unhinged. If that hurts your feelings, get over it, and grow up.

          • Jonnystheboss

            It is suggested because that is what you have implied by asking if I have suffered personal financial losses. It is an example of an analogy. You fail to grasp it for the fact that you continually bring up her sex life where it’s a footnote in a larger discussion. In fact, it appears to be your sole focus here. Not the dealings regarding her finances, or the journalists metaphorically being in bed with developers. Not the fact that a charitable organization that supported feminism was completely screwed over. How about the rampant censorship within reddit while a mod is publicly contacting her to discuss it?
            What you’re doing is no different than the media that shouts, “misogyny!” All while refusing to fact-check. Refusing to address valid concerns that have NOTHING to do with her sex life. Or concerns that have nothing to do with her being female so much as a reprehensible being that is making gains off of playing a victim and basically acts as a spring-board for media to use reverse-bullying tactics.
            Your messages across the board are so fixated on her sex life that it’s incredibly apparent that you aren’t here for discussion. You’re here for the sole purpose of stirring shit up and providing a distraction. You are functionally a shill.

          • cloudstrife990

            Well I was going to reply to him but you hit the nail on the head so hard it would be beating a dead horse at this point. A dead horse nail. Thank you, sir.

          • Jonnystheboss

            I’ve had to explain it over about six comments. Hammer tired. Give it an hour, he’ll be back talking about her sex life and an invasion of privacy again. Minding business and all that.

          • cloudstrife990

            Well i mean it’s obviously none of our business, right? lel

          • Jonnystheboss

            Of course not. We should all feel guilty about our supposedly justifiable anger regarding a public figure in the industry we’ve all wanted to be taken seriously for decades.

  • Diselt

    An apologist article defending Zoe, who is a massive cunt if the allegations of her shitty misdeeds are true, eh? Of course.

    • Josh Wirtanen

      I never defended Zoe, per se. I don’t know if what she allegedly did was true or not true. Neither do you.

      However, she was being harassed way back in December for putting her game on Steam Greenlight.

      That’s pretty shitty.

      The allegations about her sleeping around come from her ex-boyfriend’s blog, which was posted just a couple days ago.

      If everything her ex says is true, yeah, that’s pretty shitty too. However, we all say really stupid things during/immediately following a breakup, and we can’t be sure whether her ex is just going nuts or if he’s calling her out on stuff that actually happened. It’s too early to say.

      Really, all I wanted to do with this particular piece was to show what was going on with Phil Fish’s Twitter, because he was trending and a lot of people probably want to know why.

      Immediately after this, Fish started talking about this:

      Which is a lot more important anyway.

      • Diselt

        My comment was written pretty terribly, since I wrote “article” instead of “tweet”, haha. I was mainly referring to Phil’s batshit insanity, because either way, the guy has some screws loose upstairs. I suppose we could call him a master troll. I mean, look at the way the guy said “I canceled a project you didn’t even know about! And another, and another!” That’s seriously something I’d expect to hear from a comic book villain or something. It’s creepy to an extent.

        But yeah, I’d heard about the Zoe bashing several months back, but didn’t care enough to look into it. If they bashed her just for being a woman, then that definitely blows. But if the allegations leveled at her are true, then… that’s clearly terrible, there’s no denying that. But you make a good point — the fact that these allegations originated from a clearly biased source, her disgruntled ex-boyfriend, one has no choice but to realistically be skeptical about the validity of the claims.

        Either way, it’s all just one big clusterfuck.

        • Josh Wirtanen

          Oh man, I’m laughing about the comic book villain comment! That’s the best way I’ve ever seen Phil Fish described ever!

          • Dickbutt

            The ”Raid” back in December was actually never confirmed other than Zoe’s Hearsay, the people who asked about proof or confirmation of that got drowned in sea of White-knights calling everyone a misogynist who dares to question her.

            The Shitstorm on Steam on the other hand, once again, had nothing to do with misogyny but with her banning people left and right for daring to second-guess her.

            Occam’s razor, Mr. Wirtanen.

            Sometimes there is no misogyny involved and a shitty person is just a shitty person.
            I don’t know if what Eron Gjoni is true, but he has proof, he has Screenshots on multiple devices and its pretty consistent with how she has been acting before when someone accused her of anything.

            Burger and Fries.

          • Timothy Schmid

            Rape (according to Zoe’s own definition), emotional abuse and manipulation, and gaslighting.

        • Mandi Odoerfer

          Your comment inspired a lot of laughs and a semi-terrible article. Thanks, Diselt!

      • Madfoot713

        >However, she was being harassed way back in December for putting her game on Steam Greenlight.

        That is a lie. I can confirm it is a lie because I am a member of the community she accused of harassing her and no one remembers a raid. She never proved her accusations, especially about receiving phone calls, and Escapist or any other blog never bothered asking for proof.

  • spideynut71

    We lose Robin Williams to suicide, but we can’t manage to get rid of this loser. That’s just f*cked up….

    • ChatWraithUpsilon

      I don’t think anyone knows who phil fish is except phil fish.

    • Jason Mounce

      Acting as if Suicide and Depression is something that should be taken lightly from one human to another? . . . Don’t compare Robin Williams to Phil for numerous reasons, but especially under the guise of ‘getting rid of’ a person you don’t 100% know.

      • spideynut71

        I’m not taking suicide OR depression lightly, Mounce…I’m merely saying I’d gladly trade Robin’s life for Phil’s. Now get off your f*cking high-horse.

        • Jason Mounce

          Saying you’d trade One life for another is a prime example of taking Life/Death lightly.

          Contradicting twit. Telling me I’m on a highhorse whilst talking about how you’d sacrifice one person for another? Because of what? Your childish emotive little anger towards someone you’ve never personally met? Grow the f*ck up. rofl.

          • Pretty Cool Guy

            No one cares, idiot. The guy made a joke, shut up, take your Prozac and get back in the toll booth.

          • Martin C

            What are you, fucking 12? Grow up and be a man. Jesus.

          • Jason Mounce

            Takes a 12 year old to know a 12 year old I guess?

            You should take your own advice, ‘Grow up and be a man’, coming from the guy who’s attempting to make fun of a complete stranger over the internet. Have you ever heard of the special Olympics, m@te?

          • Pretty Cool Guy

            Let me make sure I have this; so you *are* a 12 year old? Because that’s what I’m taking away from your post.

            Also, weren’t you just saying earlier how it’s not ok to make fun of depression and suicide? Why is it suddenly ok to make fun of the Special Olympics?

            I guess the real question is; are you some kind of moron?

          • Jason Mounce

            Sarcasm certainly flies over your head. Yes, a 12 year old could clearly speak as clearly and cognitively like I have been.

            There’s a difference between talking about a subject of Death, depression and suicide and an old internet joke that you seem to be spinning in a serious light in spite just as a form of a red herring.

            People like you are incapable of pinpointing who is and who isn’t a moron because your perception is inept and mentally challenged. You’ve already gone Full-Retard so either way, no matter what I say or do, your personality isn’t a salvageable one. I’ll leave you alone to your mud puddle, continue rolling around as you please but I’ve partaken enough to know you’re too experienced in the mud pits for me. :)

          • Pretty Cool Guy

            ‘I’ve lost the argument so I’ll just give a flighty little remark about how this doesn’t bother me at all and then tell everyone I’ve got better things to do, when in fact I don’t.’
            – You, apparently?

            Also, ‘old internet joke,’ brilliant. Like saying you’ve been around for a long time means anything here. Not long enough to not get into retarded arguments, huh?

          • Jason Mounce

            Haha XD Right, if believing I ‘lost’ something because you say so makes you feel better about yourself 😛 Go Riiiight ahead there son. You act like there was an argument to win/lose when all you were doing was mud-slinging, meaning you’re claiming a ‘Win’. You know what they say about people who think they’re ‘Winning’ petty things over the internet eh? Congrats again.

            You won the Special Olympics :) And continue proving yourself to be Full-Retard 😀

          • Pretty Cool Guy

            Yeah, you’re right, it wasn’t much of an argument, since you had nothing to contribute in the first place.

            I love people like you, getting offended for everyone else. You’re not going to make friends, you’re not going to get laid, people aren’t going to like you for defending ‘issues’ like this. No one gives a shit if you get upset about someone making a joke, especially when you’re the only person who doesn’t understand that it is in fact a joke.

            Consider; a hundred years from now, nothing you ever did will matter. We’re all going to die, history won’t remember any of us, the universe doesn’t care that you got offended. Just take your meds and wait for the end. Jesus.

          • Jason Mounce

            If saying that makes you sleep better at night. Again, and again – is the only way you can argue with people is acting like a child and pretending like you’re a ignorant tool pretending to be a genius?

            Offended? Oooh, now you’re psychic! EXCELLENT! A Psychic attention whore! And a hypocrite with your word-choices. I’m the offended one, yet each and everyone of these posts of yours seems to be showing a different picture here. You’re SO upset by the things I’ve said that you’re basically wishing misery upon me for Offending you and hurting your feelings. What kind of miserable, damaged little sob are you, eh? A random feeb like yourself browses the internet and then jumps in an online conflict that has nothing to do with you, you go and call a person using (Specifically) ‘Psychological advice’ as stupid, for using psychological advice, because you say so…. there is absolutely no reason for you to exist or be here or to argue other than to fulfill a sad little shit-stain of your ignorant ego by trying to condescend and belittle random people with me being your current target to make yourself feel better clearly about your miserable life. I don’t wander the internet aimlessly like you, challenging and attacking people at random whims like a sad little bully-complexed individual.

            I’ll make it quick and clear, because I get this feeling, you’re just here to argue Endlessly, no matter what is said and throw mud and feces like a rampaging delinquent monkey who has nothing better to do than to stroke his ego by belittling everyone who you cross over the internet. There will be no end because it’s also clear that you’re probably the kind of person who HAS to have the last say in things to feel better about himself.

            I can’t conjure any insults to find to use on you because all of them would likely work, but all of them would be inefficient at describing the potency of how pathetic you are and how it’d probably prove fruitless because of how ignorant you are. Every reality and every truth that could be spoken about how miserable and damaged you are will probably be averted and ignored, dodged and pushed aside because you’d have already heard them all by others by now and are used to being called everything. All I was doing here, was discussing the importance of Life and death of individual lives and you come in here, stroking your miniscule dick like you have a problem with me. Egotrippers like you, are a cancer. Whatever it is you’re doing in life as a profession I will no doubt believe will be insignificant, my goals in life are to achieve much more and for the sake of the world. Everyone has an ego and my ego is going to be large enough to have to undertake what I’m going to do in life, however, I know I’ll always be better off than you because I don’t need to ego-trip and attack people like you do, likely at a daily basis I might add.

            You are on the offensive, I am on the defensive, you cannot imply I am offended when it is like this. I get defensive around mouthy twats who attack random people to stroke their ego. So the question is, why does your little pecker get sore and your mind becomes offensive to people like me? Probably sounds like you’re reflecting inner-hate towards others or anything that reminds you of yourself. Lol Either way. Go take this as a ‘Win’ and add it to your whiteboard of your ‘Arguments Won over the internet’. I am quite literally done with this and you since I know you’re helpless, no psychic powers are needed to deduce that talking to you is a waste of time and you’re only here for ONE THING, Dick stroking. I will never win in a conversation or be held as part of the majority, when it comes to ‘Not Attacking Phil Fish’, he is on the shit list and makes it so most monkeys go and attack him and anyone else who may be seen who is not attacking him.

          • Pretty Cool Guy

            I skimmed over this novel you wrote, ‘literally done with this’ stood out amongst the interminable psychoanalysis retards seem so fond of. So after writing that essay about how much didn’t care, you *then* decided you were done with it, but didn’t have the self-awareness or introspection to realise that you just spent time, actual time making up your finite existence, time you can never get back, trying to make someone feel bad over the internet. What an idiot. You didn’t even succeed, moron. Who am I? Who are you? This is literally meaningless.

            Also, Phil’s dick ain’t gettin’ any closer to your mouth, even if you pull the aloof card, pretending you don’t want it but secretly waiting for him to make the move.

          • Jason Mounce

            Precious, going on your guest-accounts to + yourself up? Cute.

            Why are you so salty over Phil Fish, did he break your heart and dump you? Jesus, you’re like a deranged woman who’s still hung up over her ex. I don’t need to know how ‘little f*cks’ you give since it’s a common trait with ignorant little kiddies.

            I suggest you go receive Anger Management to help you with your keyboard warrior problems.

          • Pretty Cool Guy

            Protip; slinging around psychological advice doesn’t make you sound smart. It makes you sound like what you are; an idiot.

            Also, Phil Fish isn’t going to let you give him a pole polishing if you defend him on the internet, mate, he’s more than capable of defending himself.

            Or maybe he’s not, and that’s why he’s such a little girl on Twitter?

          • Jason Mounce

            Gee wizz, no one’s allowed to ‘sling around psychological advice’ even if you’re studying and literally going to Master psychology. Can you comprehend how blatantly retarded YOU sound? The first two sentences you typed? You’re telling someone that they SOUND and ARE an idiot on the grounds of using psychological advice….? REALLY now?

            You may as well have just typed “Protip, I’m a raving moron, give me attention.”

            You should check out your insecurities, it’s all over the place. I use psychological advice because it comes naturally to me, because I can and because it’s what I’ll literally Master soon enough. You can’t criticize people for using it as if the entire internet is RESTRICTED on the grounds of you thinking it opens possibilities to insult someone on the grounds of ‘because internet’ or ‘because I say so’? You have no capability of calling Anyone else stupid. Look in the mirror sometime.

            I’m not even directly defending Phil, since the original argument flew over your head where you’re attacking the arguer and not arguing the argument itself (Here you go, this is called Ad hominem). I’m saying that all life is variably important, every human has a chance to redeem their flaws at some point in life and every person can have a troubled beginning or mid-life crisis or the like. Being a raging keyboard warrior where you think you’re Top Lel by being assaultive and harass people on the internet just shows what kind of a sad little person you are, more or less.

          • Dickbutt

            Dude, Fish is in it because he is defending a fellow dev who worked on FEZ and is one of the Five Guys.

          • Jason Mounce

            Yes, I know he’s defending someone else. People don’t care either way and are willing to attack him because it’s the hip thing to do. And He also couldn’t care less if he has to become mouthy and arrogant during his sprees of trolling and causing people like those above and below this comment to take him seriously and attack him for it and wish him to go die. His trolling seems to cause a lot of people to get salty. Then when they go to try to troll everyone, they I guess envision themselves as some kind of internet badass. rofl

          • Jason Mounce

            Everyone has a ‘guest’ account you idiot -_-

      • Azrael the Cat

        Well, I’m bipolar, which generally trumps depression – am I allowed to take it lightly?

        • Alcoholic Luigi

          If you’re trying to play mental illness misery poker, you’re wrong. Period.

        • Jason Mounce

          By all means. Taking things ‘lightly’ as a form of comedic routine is all natural. Or if you’ve experienced it and can poke fun and make light of a serious situation? That’s fine. However, being aggressive or using it in light as a form of insult to other people to stroke your ego? That’s where it goes from normal to bad/pathetic.

          I make ‘Light’ of serious situations all the time to alleviate stressful or tense social spaces. Like one being when my dad passed away and everyone in the entire room was just standing and mumbling to eachother with a whole sour, depressive mood. I was able to change that, thanks to accidentally leaving a coke bottle in the freezer for too long and opening it in the middle of the crowd. Good times.

    • Fiona C

      Dude, Fish is an asshole but implying he should die? That’s not cool.

  • ChatWraithUpsilon

    Has anyone actually played Fez? It looks kind of generic to me. Knowing that some asshole made it kind of deters me from even giving it a try.

    This dude, for all the entitlement he calls out, seems like his ego has swollen far more than he’s deserved.

    • Dickbutt

      The real problem is that the Indie-Scene seems as much of a gigantic hug-box as the AAA-Mainstream turf.
      The very same people who complain about awards and E3 and GDC for unfinished games then write how great it is that Phil Fish unfinished FEZ game won this or that best game award at a IndieDev-gettogether (aka circlejerk)

      So of course the Indie-Scene will stand behind a twat like Fish when they should be calling him out on his shit.

      • Nicholas

        Dis Phil Fish all you want, he is definitely eccentric and I’m not speaking at all to how you feel about him.

        To call Fez anything short of a masterpiece is a lie, though. You really should try it if you get the chance; it is an extremely unique game and you will be amazed at the talent Phil has in his spatial game design.

        Again, not defending his tirades, just defending the game.

        • Dickbutt

          Ah but you see I have played it. It was part of a humble bundle some while back.

          I would say that it is a solid game but hardly ground-breaking nor does it deserve all the fuss and hype that is being made around it. There are simply better Retro Plat-formers around.

          Like Volgarr.
          Like Valdis Story.
          Like Shovel Knight.

          Every single of those is a better game than FEZ and doesnt warrant his Ego at all.
          He is not the Dr. House of videogames, he is not some video game boy wonder that made the holy grail of video games.
          He is just some guy who made a game so no, I am not amazed at his talent at all.

          If he actually had something to show for his Ego I would understand, but lets not fucking pretend that FEZ is some milestone of a game and a unique masterpiece when its not.

          • ChatWraithUpsilon

            right? from what i’ve seen that’s exactly my standpoint.

          • David Szymanski

            Fez is a very different sort of platformer than those games. It’s much more focused on puzzle solving, exploration, and ambiance. I don’t think they are really comparable.

            Just from an audio/visual standpoint, Fez is pretty spectacular.

          • Nicholas

            I’m glad you pointed that out for me. Those three games look great, but I’ve only played shovel knight. None of them are similar to Fez, however.

            Interesting to see how easily you dismiss Phil’s talent and spit in his direction. Eerily similar to the person you are angry with, no?

          • Oceanicus

            Not to mention the OG indie king, Cave Story.

        • Oceanicus

          The art is good, but the game is full with bugs, some even game-breaking ones, which deter from it being a “masterpiece”.

        • da1nonly

          I certainly wouldn’t call Fez a masterpiece. It’s a good game and the perspective change is neat but there are a lot of puzzle platformers with a selling gimmick too. I prefer Braid over Fez anyday, but that’s just me

    • David Streever

      It’s actually a really good game, and you are missing out, but that is okay!

    • Nathan Merrill

      It is a novelty game. It is an interesting idea. It isn’t actually GOOD, but it is interesting. It probably isn’t worth going out of your way to purchase or play.

  • Mandi Odoerfer

    That was Albert Fish, but I appreciate the cannibalism trivia all the same.

  • David Whiteknight

    The 4chan community hate her because:

    Everyone hates ‘gaymer journalists’ (seriously fuck gaymer journalists fucking cancer can’t even play vidya gone home 10/10)

    She sucks dick for reviews.

    She made a shit game that isn’t a game.

    She’s a 2.5/10.

    She’s a professional victim SJW (well, gaymer journalist, same thing).

    • Fiona C

      You say she sucks dick for reviews…but none of the people she slept with to my knowledge published reviews of her games?

      • Nathan Merrill

        If your coworker is writing a story about your girlfriend, how neutral do you think they are likely to be?

        It wasn’t really reviews so much as positive coverage which mentioned her.

  • Koyomi K

    the bar to be known and recognized by potential masses is too fucking low these days. the bar for these untalented, visionless idiots to become game developers is also.

  • Will_Z_Macht

    Phil, no one cares if you cancelled your latest project… or your next ten projects.

    No one gives a shit about Fez except pretentious “games journalists”.

  • Budgiecat

    Phil Fishdicks

  • Scott Waitforit Batchelor

    She probably slept with this little fish too, too bad he’s incoherent.

  • Vectom1000

    Zoe Quinn

    she has /r/gaming mod el_chupacupcake in her back pocket as well as many high profile names in the gaming industry all trying to cover her tracks for her.

    A manipulator playing victim while getting high profile industry men to fight for her in exchange for sex.


    • David Streever

      You are an idiot. I have never slept with her, nor met her, but let me say this for you: people are defending her because your attack on her is stupid and nosey. None of it is your business.

  • Lemoncakes

    Garbage human being defends garbage human being who acted like a garbage human being by acting like a garbage human being.

    So epic guys.

  • winrarphile

    Phil fish having a internet meltdown. What’s new?

    • Python490

      he’s a bit sad now. He’s only made one decent game.

      • Koyomi K

        he’s a one hit indie wonder. he’ll never be relevant outside of some internet shit storm again.

  • AnarchyBrony

    And then Phil deletes his twitter. AGAIN

    brilliant Phil, you have proven yourself to be the Chad Rocco and Amy Bouzaglo of the Gaming Industry.

    Go fuck yourself.

  • fuck_your_weirdo_cult

    Wow? Ya’ll are trying to “slut-shame” her? What is this high school? Is your goal to make her eat lunch alone in the art room??? lolololol You know what, She could be slut queen of slut mountain, but it is totally irrelevant! ( Actually might be a fun game ) ( Actually there is no such thing as a slut, its a term invented by sexist goons to police women’s lives and make them feel degraded but hey ) Trust me, No one over 14 years old gives a shit about her personal life! ( If you do, you are only looking to justify your own bigotry ) She is a progressive female contributing to the video game design world as far as im concerned she can have sex with whoever she wants: reviewers, married guys, barack obama – WHO CARES! Its suuuuper ironic that a bunch of dudes who are dedicated to playing retrograde games that hyper-sexualize women even have an issue with this…. Oh but right, insecure men are terrified by real female sexuality! You want women to be sexy, personality-less props for your male-centered story lines… but when they use the sexual power instilled in them by our society to thier OWN advantage- You dumb dicks turn around and call her a slut – which isn’t even a word so much as it is a declaration of your own ignorance. Have fun being dumb, dummies!

    • metroid_fetish

      Originally this post was a 2 out of 10 at best, but after the blowjob you gave me, I’m bumping up the score to a 6. Thanks again for completely missing the point.

    • da1nonly

      I don’t care who she fucks, but the allegations don’t look good for her character

      If the rumors are true, it’s ironic that as a SJW she used her sexual power for her own advantage. I thought the whole idea behind feminism was that men and women should be equal, women should be judged on their merits and that women shouldn’t be sexualized because they’re women. Yet, if the allegations are true, she got ahead only because let herself be sexualized, which would discredit her as source for feminism in the industry in general.

      This still doesn’t change that she claimed Wizardchan was bold enough to harass her, which sounds like total bull shit. There are people on Wizardchan who have anxiety about talking on the phone, but she claims she’s getting threatening calls from this group? What’s even worse, most people don’t know the difference between 4chan, /b/ and Wizardchan and simply defended her, and started shaming Wizardchan, which only caused the already socially awkward to feel even more awkward

      Finally, she pretty much uprooted a pro-feminism dev contest that wanted to give more credit to female developers. She claimed it was oppressive to women, and when the contest holders tried to go the gaming journalists to tell, their story was refused because it was against her. One of the contest holders basically says the sites tell him there’s no way Zoe would act that way without a reason. Then, when he tries to hire Zoe as a consultant so that they could avoid being oppressive and have a successful contest, she completely ignored them, leaving them SOL.

      Note how none of this actually calls her a slut. My first paragraph mentions that sex could have been involved, but I’m not gonna jump to conclusions. Not including that, this still doesn’t change how she used Wizardchan as a scapegoat (probably because Wizardchan wouldn’t retaliate, not even to defend themselves) or that for no explainable reason she was primarily responsible for derailing an entire contest that was for female developers in the industry.

      Tl;dr – it doesn’t matter if she’s slutty or not, she’s just a shitty person in general

    • Nathan Merrill

      The issue is not that she slept with people.

      The issue is that she slept with people -who furthered her career-. The problem is, essentially, bribery; the fact that she bribed people with sex rather than cash makes no difference.

      It means that A) all of her success and positive press is now automatically suspect and B) all of the things that all the people she has slept with are now also automatically suspect because they participated in at a minimum unprofessional and very possibly unethical behavior.

      Taking payola in return for positive coverage is unethical behavior if you don’t disclose the payola. Same applies here. Same applies to personal relationships with journalism subjects.

      The fact that she claims to be an advocate for women’s issues while not actually genuinely caring about any of the social justice issues she propounds just further makes things worse, and also lends credence to the idea that the Social Justice Warriors are a cult rather similar to Scientology.

  • fuck_your_weirdo_cult

    Who cares about her???? You baby boys should be mad at the man that broke his “solemn video game reviewer vows” and ( supposedly ) gave her preferential treatment?? Obviously! HE COMPROMISED HIS OWN JOB. Its not HER job to be an “unbiased video game journalist” . Its her job to be a good game developer and live her damn life. What is wrong with you morons

    • Nathan Merrill

      Prostituting yourself to get good press does not speak well of your personal moral character and means any positive press about you is unreliable and untrustworthy.

      Why would I trust anyone who is willing to be friendly with someone who bribes their way to success? The only kind of person who is willing to spend time with vile people are other vile people, because no one else is willing to tolerate their poor behavior.

      It speaks poorly of Zoe Quinn’s personal integrity, it speaks poorly of the personal integrity of the other game devs who defend her and who hire her to work with them after sleeping with her, it speaks poorly of the integrity of the gaming press… it just speaks poorly of everyone around her that tolerates this sort of behavior.

      If they aren’t reliable, then why should anyone listen to them?

  • Flyingtarantulas

    Here we see the Phil Fish in its natural habitat, trying to be edgy and white-knight women on the internet. Unfortunately, this Fish rarely reproduces.

  • PimpnRayman

    Phil Fish everyone going wish everyone now go back and sleep for 22 springs and awake the 22 day to say something that we won’t give a fuck about.

  • Flyingtarantulas

    Just for fun:

  • rurerapa

    >capitalizes the c in 4chan
    >thinks there’s a real difference between 4chan and the steam community
    >thinks 4chan picks on people because they’re female and not because they did
    something stupid that they would find amusing to taunt

    And yet this site still has a word in its name that would mislead someone into believing they know about video game culture.

    • David Streever

      Dude, if she was a man who’d slept around, no one on 4Chan would care at all. Maybe they’d give her ‘reps’ or whatever they do.

      This is entirely about her being a woman in gaming. That is why they are fixated on her.

      Do you have any idea how many male actors and directors and producers have done worse? Do you have any idea how little outrage film fans share about it?

      • rurerapa

        Sure whatever you fucking say buddy.
        You do realize you are talking about an anonymous site where its nearly impossible to determine the veracity of statements right?

        I hope you’re not one of those cunts who believes in that “rape culture” nonsense or will get on me about using the word cunt like that, as if in this context it means anything besides me choosing some generic insult that I happen to know.
        Most people on 4chan – in fact most people in general – are fine with equality.

        By the way, you don’t want people judging others?
        Why are you judging 4chan’s userbase?

        I hate you people so much. Gamer’s Gate is fucking stupid yes, but you know it all just sprang up from people like you.

        9 months ago.. Don’t care this shit pisses me off too much.

        • David Streever

          Yes, I have personally witnessed things that are referred to as ‘rape culture’ by academics. I guess that my having had different experiences than you makes me contemptible to you. Enjoy your hate! Nine months later and you’re still wound up. If you can afford it, I recommend getting a massage or a spa day.

  • Koyomi K

    yea, and an ugly slut. at least she found some self esteem recently though right. that’s progress.

  • Colin P. Müller

    What a whiteknight piece of shit

  • David Streever



    All this is about is what seems to be a bunch of dudes freaking out that a woman had sex they don’t approve of and an affair. This is a free game; one man she *MAY* have slept with *noted that it existed* in a round-up of, what, 50? games. That’s not exactly ‘sex for positive review’ despite your salaciously stupid take on it.

    It happens all the time in the whole rest of the world; I don’t see you demanding that major films be pulled from the shelves, but this happens all over the film industry.

    Do any of you not watch *any* film where the director, actors, actresses, or producers had sex you disapprove of outside of the context of that film?

    What about the ‘lead gaffer’? What about the 3rd gaffer?

    What about the cousin of the ADR recordist?

    It’s an incredibly stupid and invasive way to judge a game–on the sexual acts of the creator–and I guarantee you that you do not use this standard in *any other facet of your consumerism*. There is not a single product out there which you do not purchase because of the sex life of the creator.

    So, ask yourselves why you care about this one. Do you see yourself in the role of Zoe Quinn’s boyfriend? Were you cheated on? Do you have misgivings about certain types of games that makes you latch on this? Do you have inappropriate negative feelings towards women in gaming that makes you latch on to this?

    I don’t know, and won’t pretend to know, what your collective damage is, but I do know–without knowing any of you–that none of you give two shits about the sex life of the guy who prototyped the volume button on your smart phone, and you don’t give two shits about the stock boy who put the groceries on the shelf you bought last night, so your persecution of Quinn has to be coming from something OTHER than your deeply held convictions about sexual morality.

    • Lemoncakes

      How about I judge Depression Quest by its 0.1 metacritic score? lololol.

      • David Streever

        why is that funny? You are free to do that, too. You really ought to just try it for 10 minutes though; it’s a free game, and then you’ll *actually know* and not be taking a chance that you’ve let a large number of abusive, infantile men-children dictate how you feel.

        • Lemoncakes

          Here I found a better one:

          • David Streever

            So, when you have nothing intelligent to say, you can instead make a strawman argument against women and sexism? That’s… about exactly the level of intelligence and reasoning I expected from you.

          • Lemoncakes

            4 levels of irony in your comment see if you can find them all!

  • JN Elfprincess

    Madfoot713, one of your comments has been deleted. Please don’t directly attack fellow commentors. Thank you.

  • Jack Omalley

    So in usual Phil Fish style, he acted like a jackass.

  • Peregrine

    And, in the end, the ‘Quinnspiracy’ turned out to be a non-issue anyway – allegations of her ‘sexing it up’ to get good reviews have been disproven, and everyone who harassed her and sent her death threats did it for no reason – except, of course, that they were goddamn jackasses, probably sexist ones, though they could be just general jackasses regardless of gender, it’s not fair to generalize about jackasses.

  • metroid_fetish

    0/10. Would not bang.

  • klepp0906

    She’s a skeeze and he’s a tool who thinks he’s big shit but resorts to faux chivalry to try and get his dick wet. (To be fair, legit strat with someone who has her self esteem level)